I need help with Philippians 2:6-8

How do I work out the meaning of a Greek text? How can I best understand the forms and vocabulary in this particular text?
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Eduardo Ortega wrote:
John Brainard wrote: Just out of curiosity, "Why is this one in the beginners Area"?
Because I posted it in the beginners Area, and I posted it here because I'm beginner.
I don't know if it is not the right section for this kind of questions (I'm also new to the forum).
If you're a beginner, this is the right place to post.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
David Lim
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8

Post by David Lim »

cwconrad wrote:My guess here is that a significant nuance in usage is being ignored here and that a dubious distinction is being suggested.

[...]
Sorry I wasn't trying to suggest a distinction. Rather I was trying to say that "δουλος" does have a more specific meaning of bondage, whether by choice or not, and that "παις" is more generic (like the word "boy"), which can of course be used for a "slave" as well. To be a slave of Yahweh in the Hebrew writings is to wholly submit to his authority, which is to Israel a good bondage, in contrast with the evil bondage in Egypt, as you said. On the other hand, I think that "παις" rather than "δουλος" should be used if no connotation of absolute subjection is intended.
timothy_p_mcmahon wrote:I think the rendering of δοῦλος in English touches upon cross-cultural issues in translation. For Americans, at least, the word 'slave' conjures up the imagery of the racially-based chattel slavery that mars our history, an image that would not have inhered in the minds of NT authors and readers. While 'slave' might be in some respects the most accurate word-for-word rendering of δοῦλος, the wrong turn it takes in being imported from that culture to ours leaves it, on balance, a less accurate rendering.
I did suspect this same thing when I used the words "slave" and "servant" in my posts... Sorry for my differences in English usage but I hope you all can see what I am trying to say.
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John Brainard
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8

Post by John Brainard »

Jonathan Robie wrote:
Eduardo Ortega wrote:
John Brainard wrote: Just out of curiosity, "Why is this one in the beginners Area"?
Because I posted it in the beginners Area, and I posted it here because I'm beginner.
I don't know if it is not the right section for this kind of questions (I'm also new to the forum).
If you're a beginner, this is the right place to post.

my apologies. I realized that my line of questioning was out of line.

Will not do that again.

John
Eduardo Ortega
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8

Post by Eduardo Ortega »

May be that the word ἴσος could be used with the meaning of "of the same class" or "of the same category"?
Jonathan Robie
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Eduardo Ortega wrote:May be that the word ἴσος could be used with the meaning of "of the same class" or "of the same category"?
I'd probably look for places where ἴσος is used with respect to God or a god, especially in the Septuagint and the New Testament. There are also examples of this listed in LSJ's definition of the word in classical literature.

John 5:18 is interesting here.
διὰ τοῦτο μᾶλλον ἐζήτουν αὐτὸν οἱ Ἰουδαῖοι ἀποκτεῖναι, ὅτι οὐ μόνον ἔλυεν τὸ σάββατον, ἀλλὰ καὶ πατέρα ἴδιον ἔλεγεν τὸν θεόν, ἴσον ἑαυτὸν ποιῶν τῷ θεῷ.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Jason Hare
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8

Post by Jason Hare »

Eduardo Ortega wrote:May be that the word ἴσος could be used with the meaning of "of the same class" or "of the same category"?
It's interesting that Hebrews 1:4 we have the phrase κρείττων γενόμενος τῶν ἀγγέλων (becoming greater than the angels). There is also the phrase βραχύ τι παρ᾽ ἀγγέλους (a little lower than [the] angels) in 2:7 and 2:9.

If we have τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ (being equal to God) in distinction to being greater than or lower than angelic hosts, we can see some type of comparison between spiritual authorities in contradistinction to human beings. The original "a little lower than angels" came from Psalm 8:6 (8:5 in Christian Bibles), represented by the Hebrew וַתְּחַסְּרֵהוּ מְּעַט מֵאֱלֹהִים (va-techasrehu me'at me-elohim - "and you made him a little less than elohim"). The elohim (אלהים) in this passage is taken as a reference to the angelic hosts, but perhaps the Philippians passage was reading it as God rather than as angels.

If so, mankind was created "a little lower than God" (in the divine image), but this one of whom the passage in question was written wasn't created "a little lower than God" but indeed appeared "equal to God" and "in the form of God." He then chose to be lowered to the same level as mankind and to appear as a servant instead of as the ruler. In the case, I think "servant" refers to the role of all of mankind before the Deity. All people are viewed as servants of God, especially those who submit their will to his own.

It's certainly an interesting passage, and I've enjoyed reading through everyone's comments so far. I hope that this contributes a different perspective that helps in the direction of better understanding. Let me know if you think I'm reading too much into it.

Regards,
Jason
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Eduardo Ortega
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8

Post by Eduardo Ortega »

Jason Hare wrote:
Eduardo Ortega wrote:May be that the word ἴσος could be used with the meaning of "of the same class" or "of the same category"?
It's interesting that Hebrews 1:4 we have the phrase κρείττων γενόμενος τῶν ἀγγέλων (becoming greater than the angels). There is also the phrase βραχύ τι παρ᾽ ἀγγέλους (a little lower than [the] angels) in 2:7 and 2:9.

If we have τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ (being equal to God) in distinction to being greater than or lower than angelic hosts, we can see some type of comparison between spiritual authorities in contradistinction to human beings. The original "a little lower than angels" came from Psalm 8:6 (8:5 in Christian Bibles), represented by the Hebrew וַתְּחַסְּרֵהוּ מְּעַט מֵאֱלֹהִים (va-techasrehu me'at me-elohim - "and you made him a little less than elohim"). The elohim (אלהים) in this passage is taken as a reference to the angelic hosts, but perhaps the Philippians passage was reading it as God rather than as angels.

If so, mankind was created "a little lower than God" (in the divine image), but this one of whom the passage in question was written wasn't created "a little lower than God" but indeed appeared "equal to God" and "in the form of God." He then chose to be lowered to the same level as mankind and to appear as a servant instead of as the ruler. In the case, I think "servant" refers to the role of all of mankind before the Deity. All people are viewed as servants of God, especially those who submit their will to his own.

It's certainly an interesting passage, and I've enjoyed reading through everyone's comments so far. I hope that this contributes a different perspective that helps in the direction of better understanding. Let me know if you think I'm reading too much into it.

Regards,
Jason
Hello Jason. Thanks. My intention was to ask the question on linguistics grounds.
There would be a lot to talk on these passages, and it would be interesting. I'll only comment that I believe that Psalms 8:6 says "a little lower than God" (not angels).

But my question was rather related to the meaning of equal -ἴσος-, whether it could have been used with the meaning of "in the same category", not taken (the meaning) from the Hebrews but from Greece and Rome, I'm asking if it was an usual meaning of the word at that time, that could be understood like that.
Jonathan Robie
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Eduardo Ortega wrote:But my question was rather related to the meaning of equal -ἴσος-, whether it could have been used with the meaning of "in the same category", not taken (the meaning) from the Hebrews but from Greece and Rome, I'm asking if it was an usual meaning of the word at that time, that could be understood like that.
Personally, I'd try to look for ways that the word is used in the sense of being ἴσος to God or to a god.

I don't think you can safely assume that Paul is using the word in the same sense as, say, Euclid. Words have different senses, and the sense in which the word is used with respect to God or gods is probably what you are looking for.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Eduardo Ortega
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8

Post by Eduardo Ortega »

Jonathan Robie wrote:
Eduardo Ortega wrote:But my question was rather related to the meaning of equal -ἴσος-, whether it could have been used with the meaning of "in the same category", not taken (the meaning) from the Hebrews but from Greece and Rome, I'm asking if it was an usual meaning of the word at that time, that could be understood like that.
Personally, I'd try to look for ways that the word is used in the sense of being ἴσος to God or to a god.

I don't think you can safely assume that Paul is using the word in the same sense as, say, Euclid. Words have different senses, and the sense in which the word is used with respect to God or gods is probably what you are looking for.
Yes, but the uses of ἴσος with respect to God (or a god) are very few in the Bible, in fact I know of just two, this one and the one in John 5:18 that you pointed too.
WittyET
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8

Post by WittyET »

timothy_p_mcmahon wrote:The standard NT Greek dictionary is Bauer. It's quite expensive but indispensable if you want to pursue a serious study of the Greek NT.

For Hebrew I'd recommend Koehler & Baumgartner. Equally pricey, unfortunately.

My own intuitive take on your verse is that the anarthrous occurrences of θεός stress God categorically rather than God personally, but I'm sure there are other ways of looking at them.
I have used Koehler & Baungartner and I think the translations I made are more than reliable.
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