I need help with Philippians 2:6-8

How do I work out the meaning of a Greek text? How can I best understand the forms and vocabulary in this particular text?
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Eduardo Ortega wrote:
Stephen Carlson wrote:Verse 7 has three words of similar meaning: μορφήν, ὁμοιώματι, and σχήματι. My general advice is to focus on their commonalities rather than their distinctions.
OK, but I would like to know if there is a rule or something about that. Thanks.
My personal advice would be to use the context to determine how these words are being used, and other places where Paul uses these words.

Here's a dissertation that goes into the usage of these words in Greek literature as a whole:

http://ntresources.com/blog/?p=116

The summary of the dissertation says that because μορφή most frequently refers to visible appearance in Greek literature, it has that meaning here, and refers to Jesus having the same glorious appearance as God. Possibly, but to me 'the form of a servant' is not a visible appearance, and most descriptions of the appearance of God mention glory or other similar things. If μορφή can have other meanings, I would tend to think 'visible appearance' is a bit awkward in this context.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
David Lim
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8

Post by David Lim »

Jonathan Robie wrote:The summary of the dissertation says that because μορφή most frequently refers to visible appearance in Greek literature, it has that meaning here, and refers to Jesus having the same glorious appearance as God. Possibly, but to me 'the form of a servant' is not a visible appearance, and most descriptions of the appearance of God mention glory or other similar things. If μορφή can have other meanings, I would tend to think 'visible appearance' is a bit awkward in this context.
I also don't think "μορφη θεου" is referring to "the same glorious appearance as God" but is wider than that. "μορφη" can mean "outward form" or "outward fashion", thus "μορφην δουλου λαβων" would mean "having become a slave outwardly" (though he actually "was not" a slave).
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Eduardo Ortega
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8

Post by Eduardo Ortega »

Jonathan Robie wrote:
Eduardo Ortega wrote:
Stephen Carlson wrote:Verse 7 has three words of similar meaning: μορφήν, ὁμοιώματι, and σχήματι. My general advice is to focus on their commonalities rather than their distinctions.
OK, but I would like to know if there is a rule or something about that. Thanks.
My personal advice would be to use the context to determine how these words are being used, and other places where Paul uses these words.

Here's a dissertation that goes into the usage of these words in Greek literature as a whole:

http://ntresources.com/blog/?p=116
Thanks, I'll read it now.
Jonathan Robie wrote:The summary of the dissertation says that because μορφή most frequently refers to visible appearance in Greek literature, it has that meaning here, and refers to Jesus having the same glorious appearance as God. Possibly, but to me 'the form of a servant' is not a visible appearance, and most descriptions of the appearance of God mention glory or other similar things. If μορφή can have other meanings, I would tend to think 'visible appearance' is a bit awkward in this context.
What I say is that the "appearance of God" and "the appearance of a servant", is not about how physically Jesus looked like, but how his actions make him to be perceived by others.
He had the "appearance of God" not because he tried to appear like that, but it was unavoidable because the power he operated, all the miracles he did, and a lot of great thigs that he did. On other hand, the "appearance of a servant" is how he sought to appear, that's the reputation he tried to make of himself (in other words, he didn't seek for a reputation, he just served doing God's will).

Whe the text says "he emptied (ἐκένωσεν) himself", he emptied of reputation. BTW, this is the way that the King James renders it: But made himself of no reputation

That's my understanding so far.
Eduardo Ortega
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8

Post by Eduardo Ortega »

David Lim wrote:
Jonathan Robie wrote:The summary of the dissertation says that because μορφή most frequently refers to visible appearance in Greek literature, it has that meaning here, and refers to Jesus having the same glorious appearance as God. Possibly, but to me 'the form of a servant' is not a visible appearance, and most descriptions of the appearance of God mention glory or other similar things. If μορφή can have other meanings, I would tend to think 'visible appearance' is a bit awkward in this context.
I also don't think "μορφη θεου" is referring to "the same glorious appearance as God" but is wider than that. "μορφη" can mean "outward form" or "outward fashion", thus "μορφην δουλου λαβων" would mean "having become a slave outwardly" (though he actually "was not" a slave).
δοῦλος means "slave" but also means someone that serves. The people that serve God are not slaves of God, but servants. (Mat 20:27, Rom 1:1, 2 Co 4:5, Gal 1:10, Tit 1:1, Isa 53:11 about Jesus, to be a servant by own will: Exo 21:5-6)
Eduardo Ortega
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8

Post by Eduardo Ortega »

Stephen Carlson wrote:Verse 7 has three words of similar meaning: μορφήν, ὁμοιώματι, and σχήματι. My general advice is to focus on their commonalities rather than their distinctions.
Thank you very much. I think that's an important point.
I was thinking about it today and I realized that God uses three words that means appearance here because He wants to highlight He is talking about appearance, how one appear to others, and how one present oneself to others.
That's of course my opinion, but I wanted to say thanks.
David Lim
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8

Post by David Lim »

Eduardo Ortega wrote:
David Lim wrote:I also don't think "μορφη θεου" is referring to "the same glorious appearance as God" but is wider than that. "μορφη" can mean "outward form" or "outward fashion", thus "μορφην δουλου λαβων" would mean "having become a slave outwardly" (though he actually "was not" a slave).
δοῦλος means "slave" but also means someone that serves. The people that serve God are not slaves of God, but servants. (Mat 20:27, Rom 1:1, 2 Co 4:5, Gal 1:10, Tit 1:1, Isa 53:11 about Jesus, to be a servant by own will: Exo 21:5-6)
"δουλος" really means "slave" / "bond-servant". (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/mor ... s&la=greek) The verses you cite do not actually support your claim. The more generic term "servant" would be better represented by "παις". Slaves may have been enslaved or may have chosen to be in bondage. (See John 8:34, Rom 6:19, 1 Cor 12:13, Gal 3:28.)
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cwconrad
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8

Post by cwconrad »

David Lim wrote:
Eduardo Ortega wrote:
David Lim wrote:I also don't think "μορφη θεου" is referring to "the same glorious appearance as God" but is wider than that. "μορφη" can mean "outward form" or "outward fashion", thus "μορφην δουλου λαβων" would mean "having become a slave outwardly" (though he actually "was not" a slave).
δοῦλος means "slave" but also means someone that serves. The people that serve God are not slaves of God, but servants. (Mat 20:27, Rom 1:1, 2 Co 4:5, Gal 1:10, Tit 1:1, Isa 53:11 about Jesus, to be a servant by own will: Exo 21:5-6)
"δουλος" really means "slave" / "bond-servant". (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/mor ... s&la=greek) The verses you cite do not actually support your claim. The more generic term "servant" would be better represented by "παις". Slaves may have been enslaved or may have chosen to be in bondage. (See John 8:34, Rom 6:19, 1 Cor 12:13, Gal 3:28.)
My guess here is that a significant nuance in usage is being ignored here and that a dubious distinction is being suggested.

(1) Although ebhed in Hebrew and δοῦλος in Greek do in essence originally mean "bond-servant," a key conceptual ingredient of Israel's exodus experience is that Israel has been delivered from involuntary servitude as abhdim of Pharaoh and has become a nation of voluntary servants abhdim of Yahweh. That distinction has shaped the religious language of Israel such that ebedh-YHWH becomes a standard term for an Israelite who takes the covenant with YHWH seriously, and the distinction has carried over into NT Greek usage of the word δοῦλος. That distinction finds beautiful expression in the phrase in the old English Book of Common Prayer, "Whose service is perfect freedom." Cf. BDAG s.v. δοῦλος §2.b.

(2) The word παῖς does not carry the essential sense of "servant" but rather of "boy." It is used as an appellation of servant in the same way as English "boy" or French garçon to refer to a servant who may,, in antebellum plantations, have been an 80-year old domestic bond-servant of his "Massa" -- or may, in a good restaurant, be a young or elderly waiter on tables working for a wage. It is true that παῖς in the LXX and the GNT may be used in the same sense as δοῦλος, but it originates more as an appellation of a servant. See BDAG s.v. παῖς §3. one who is committed in total obedience to another, slave, servant.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
timothy_p_mcmahon
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8

Post by timothy_p_mcmahon »

I think the rendering of δοῦλος in English touches upon cross-cultural issues in translation. For Americans, at least, the word 'slave' conjures up the imagery of the racially-based chattel slavery that mars our history, an image that would not have inhered in the minds of NT authors and readers. While 'slave' might be in some respects the most accurate word-for-word rendering of δοῦλος, the wrong turn it takes in being imported from that culture to ours leaves it, on balance, a less accurate rendering.
John Brainard
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8

Post by John Brainard »

It seems as if the participial phrase μορφην δουλου λαβων is a drawing a parallel with εν μορφη θεου υπαρχων. It would also seem to me that the contrast here is very dynamic and that we need to understand the term δουλου as being the lowest estate possible. The adversative αλλα adds to the emphasis and would seem to strengthen that position. I am not sure that we can even begin to understand what it (δουλου) meant for Our Glorious Savior to take on this very low low estate.

Just out of curiosity, "Why is this one in the beginners Area"?

I really enjoyed reading this thread..

Thanks

John
Eduardo Ortega
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8

Post by Eduardo Ortega »

John Brainard wrote: Just out of curiosity, "Why is this one in the beginners Area"?
Because I posted it in the beginners Area, and I posted it here because I'm beginner.
I don't know if it is not the right section for this kind of questions (I'm also new to the forum).
John Brainard wrote:I really enjoyed reading this thread..

Thanks

John
Thank you too.
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