I need help with Philippians 2:6-8
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8
Thanks guys, I'll purchase the Bauer dictionary when I can.
I know these verses are "hard", they are difficult.
I've read about 40 translations, and my idea is that when translators came to this passage, it wasn't clear for most of them. The senses they took vary, but what I also can see is that the theological view of Jesus had also a high impact on their interpretation.
Of course, it can also happen to me, and to anyone.
I have the principle that we must learn from the Bible, the Bible is the source of knowledge, so we need to discover what it actually says to know something, and not to try to accommodate the meanings to what we already think.
Then, my idea is "let the Bible talk by itself", and "let the Bible teach you and don't try you to teach to the Bible".
So, what I'm trying is to find are the possible meanings of the words and the phrases, in linguistic grounds, leaving aside what we think that it should be (because we already have an idea).
I know that the context is very important.
OK, the context there is not the nature of Christ, nor his origin.
What I read in the context is:
Verse 3: Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
Verse 9: Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Reputation, how one appear to others, who is better (or appear to be), to seek (or not to seek) for fame, for a good name.
I know these verses are "hard", they are difficult.
I've read about 40 translations, and my idea is that when translators came to this passage, it wasn't clear for most of them. The senses they took vary, but what I also can see is that the theological view of Jesus had also a high impact on their interpretation.
Of course, it can also happen to me, and to anyone.
I have the principle that we must learn from the Bible, the Bible is the source of knowledge, so we need to discover what it actually says to know something, and not to try to accommodate the meanings to what we already think.
Then, my idea is "let the Bible talk by itself", and "let the Bible teach you and don't try you to teach to the Bible".
So, what I'm trying is to find are the possible meanings of the words and the phrases, in linguistic grounds, leaving aside what we think that it should be (because we already have an idea).
I know that the context is very important.
OK, the context there is not the nature of Christ, nor his origin.
What I read in the context is:
Verse 3: Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
Verse 9: Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Reputation, how one appear to others, who is better (or appear to be), to seek (or not to seek) for fame, for a good name.
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8
You won't regret it. Celebrate the purchase with a BBQ, and use Strong's to light the fire ...Eduardo Ortega wrote:Thanks guys, I'll purchase the Bauer dictionary when I can.
What is hard about the Greek in this text for you? What questions do you have?Eduardo Ortega wrote:I know these verses are "hard", they are difficult.
I've read about 40 translations, and my idea is that when translators came to this passage, it wasn't clear for most of them. The senses they took vary, but what I also can see is that the theological view of Jesus had also a high impact on their interpretation.
Here on B-Greek, we avoid theology, partly because members here may be on completely different planets theologically, but partly for the reason you give below.
What questions do you have about the Greek text per se?Eduardo Ortega wrote:I have the principle that we must learn from the Bible, the Bible is the source of knowledge, so we need to discover what it actually says to know something, and not to try to accommodate the meanings to what we already think.
Then, my idea is "let the Bible talk by itself", and "let the Bible teach you and don't try you to teach to the Bible".
So, what I'm trying is to find are the possible meanings of the words and the phrases, in linguistic grounds, leaving aside what we think that it should be (because we already have an idea).
Yes, the context of these verses is useful. Don't forget what he says about Timothy later in the same chapter:Eduardo Ortega wrote:What I read in the context is:
Verse 3: Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
Verse 9: Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Reputation, how one appear to others, who is better (or appear to be), to seek (or not to seek) for fame, for a good name.
20 οὐδένα γὰρ ἔχω ἰσόψυχον ὅστις γνησίως τὰ περὶ ὑμῶν μεριμνήσει, 21 οἱ πάντες γὰρ τὰ ἑαυτῶν ζητοῦσιν, οὐ τὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ.
And also what he says about Epaphroditis:
29 προσδέχεσθε οὖν αὐτὸν ἐν κυρίῳ μετὰ πάσης χαρᾶς, καὶ τοὺς τοιούτους ἐντίμους ἔχετε, 30 ὅτι διὰ τὸ ἔργον Χριστοῦ μέχρι θανάτου ἤγγισεν, [n]παραβολευσάμενος τῇ ψυχῇ ἵνα ἀναπληρώσῃ τὸ ὑμῶν ὑστέρημα τῆς πρός με λειτουργίας.
And what he says about both of them harkens back to what he said in verses 3-4:
3 μηδὲν κατ’ ἐριθείαν [a]μηδὲ κατὰ κενοδοξίαν, ἀλλὰ τῇ ταπεινοφροσύνῃ ἀλλήλους ἡγούμενοι ὑπερέχοντας ἑαυτῶν, 4 μὴ τὰ ἑαυτῶν ἕκαστοι σκοποῦντες, ἀλλὰ καὶ τὰ ἑτέρων ἕκαστοι.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8
Everything. But some words are harder than others, I'll point one below and other ones in later messages.Jonathan Robie wrote:What is hard about the Greek in this text for you? What questions do you have?Eduardo Ortega wrote:I know these verses are "hard", they are difficult.
I've read about 40 translations, and my idea is that when translators came to this passage, it wasn't clear for most of them. The senses they took vary, but what I also can see is that the theological view of Jesus had also a high impact on their interpretation.
Yes, I understand, and I also agree with the idea to avoid theology. Anyway, if we are going to make a translation, it will be in some way "theology" even if we want to avoid it.Jonathan Robie wrote:Here on B-Greek, we avoid theology, partly because members here may be on completely different planets theologically, but partly for the reason you give below.
Jonathan Robie wrote: Yes, the context of these verses is useful. Don't forget what he says about Timothy later in the same chapter:
20 οὐδένα γὰρ ἔχω ἰσόψυχον ὅστις γνησίως τὰ περὶ ὑμῶν μεριμνήσει, 21 οἱ πάντες γὰρ τὰ ἑαυτῶν ζητοῦσιν, οὐ τὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ.
And also what he says about Epaphroditis:
29 προσδέχεσθε οὖν αὐτὸν ἐν κυρίῳ μετὰ πάσης χαρᾶς, καὶ τοὺς τοιούτους ἐντίμους ἔχετε, 30 ὅτι διὰ τὸ ἔργον Χριστοῦ μέχρι θανάτου ἤγγισεν, [n]παραβολευσάμενος τῇ ψυχῇ ἵνα ἀναπληρώσῃ τὸ ὑμῶν ὑστέρημα τῆς πρός με λειτουργίας.
And what he says about both of them harkens back to what he said in verses 3-4:
3 μηδὲν κατ’ ἐριθείαν [a]μηδὲ κατὰ κενοδοξίαν, ἀλλὰ τῇ ταπεινοφροσύνῃ ἀλλήλους ἡγούμενοι ὑπερέχοντας ἑαυτῶν, 4 μὴ τὰ ἑαυτῶν ἕκαστοι σκοποῦντες, ἀλλὰ καὶ τὰ ἑτέρων ἕκαστοι.
Exactly. Verse 29 talk again about reputation, verse 20 and 3 about servicing others.
Context is reputation, esteem, a name; also service; also likeminded or "same mind"; also not rivalry or vain glory.
OK. One of the important words there (in verse) 6 is μορφῇ (morphē G3444).
The meaning of this word is very important for being in the right direction for reading the following words in the verse.
I've done some research for this word already. The word just appear in the Bible in Php 2:6, Php 2:7 and Mark 16:12.
So we are only left with Mark 16:12, because Php 2:6 and 7 is what we are trying to determine, and we cannot use these verses then because it would be circular reasoning.
Mark 16:12 says "He appeared in another form to two of them". Again "form".
Of course he didn't appear in another nature, it's quite clear that he appeared with another appearance, because Luk 24:13-32 (assuming it's talking about the same two) say that they didn't recognize him.
OK. There is no other uses of μορφῇ in the Bible. But there are still some related words.
2 Timothy 2:5 has a word μόρφωσιν (morphōsin G3446)
The sense of this word is appearance. In English the most of the versions translates it as "form" but there are some that renders "appearance", but in Spanish many versions translates it as "appearance", and I think it's the right sense. They appear to be godly, to have godliness or piety, but of course they are not, because they deny the power of it.
It's about how one is perceived by others. What one appear to be.
Ok, if we don't have uses of the word μορφῇ in the Bible, then we need to look for them in other Greek scriptures.
I went to http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/mor ... ek#lexicon
The meaning it provides is: to shape, fashion, mould.
Clicking in "Word frequency statistics" (the first), it goes to http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/wor ... =morfa%2Fw
I clicked on the "50" of Flavius Josephus, Antiquitates Judaicae (the third row)
Then clicked on "More(18)".
Then I opened http://pace.mcmaster.ca/york/york/showT ... yout=split
to see the translation because I'm not able to read greek (yet).
book 2, section 61: he appointed him and the dignity of his appearance,189 both kept giving
book 2, section 84: although seen in two forms, indicates one and the same
book 2, section 98: For it was not possible for such children and appearances so remark- able
book 2, section 102: That we are brothers and have common blood both the similarity of appearance, due to relationship,
Do you know of a source where μορφῇ could mean something else?
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8
I found the occurrences of μορφῇ in the Septuagint:
Jdg 8:18 Then said he to Zebah and Zalmunna, What manner of men were they whom you slew at Tabor? And they answered, As you are, so were they; each one resembled [from כְּתֹ֖אַר KETO'AR H8389] the children of a king.
Job 4:16 It stood still, but I could not discern the form thereof: an image [from תְּ֭מוּנָה TEMUNAH H8544] was before my eyes, there was silence, and I heard a voice, saying,
Isa 44:13 The carpenter stretches out his rule; he marks it out with a line; he fits it with planes, and he marks it out with the compass, and makes it after the figure [from כְּתַבְנִ֣ית KETAVNIT H8403] of a man, according to the beauty of a man; that it may remain in the house.
Dan 4:36 At the same time my reason returned to me; and for the glory of my kingdom, my honor and brightness [from וְזִוִי֙ VEZIVI H2122] returned to me; and my counsellors and my lords sought to me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added to me.
Dan 5:6 Then the king' countenance [from זִיוֹ֣הִי ZIYOHI H2122] was changed, and his thoughts troubled him, so that the joints of his loins were loosed, and his knees smote one against another.
Dan 5:9 Then was king Belshazzar greatly troubled, and his countenance [from וְזִיוֹ֖הִי VEZIYOHI H2122] was changed in him, and his lords were astonished.
Dan 5:10 Now the queen by reason of the words of the king and his lords came into the banquet house: and the queen spoke and said, O king, live for ever: let not your thoughts trouble you, nor let your countenance [from וְזִיוָ֖יךְ VEZIVAICH H2122] be changed:
Dan 7:28 Till now is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance [from וְזִיוַי֙ VEZIVAI H2122] changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.
For me it's quite clear that its meaning is appearance.
If nobody disagree, I'll go ahead with other words.
Next ones are ἁρπαγμὸν (G725) and ἡγήσατο (G2233)
Thank you.
Jdg 8:18 Then said he to Zebah and Zalmunna, What manner of men were they whom you slew at Tabor? And they answered, As you are, so were they; each one resembled [from כְּתֹ֖אַר KETO'AR H8389] the children of a king.
Job 4:16 It stood still, but I could not discern the form thereof: an image [from תְּ֭מוּנָה TEMUNAH H8544] was before my eyes, there was silence, and I heard a voice, saying,
Isa 44:13 The carpenter stretches out his rule; he marks it out with a line; he fits it with planes, and he marks it out with the compass, and makes it after the figure [from כְּתַבְנִ֣ית KETAVNIT H8403] of a man, according to the beauty of a man; that it may remain in the house.
Dan 4:36 At the same time my reason returned to me; and for the glory of my kingdom, my honor and brightness [from וְזִוִי֙ VEZIVI H2122] returned to me; and my counsellors and my lords sought to me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added to me.
Dan 5:6 Then the king' countenance [from זִיוֹ֣הִי ZIYOHI H2122] was changed, and his thoughts troubled him, so that the joints of his loins were loosed, and his knees smote one against another.
Dan 5:9 Then was king Belshazzar greatly troubled, and his countenance [from וְזִיוֹ֖הִי VEZIYOHI H2122] was changed in him, and his lords were astonished.
Dan 5:10 Now the queen by reason of the words of the king and his lords came into the banquet house: and the queen spoke and said, O king, live for ever: let not your thoughts trouble you, nor let your countenance [from וְזִיוָ֖יךְ VEZIVAICH H2122] be changed:
Dan 7:28 Till now is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance [from וְזִיוַי֙ VEZIVAI H2122] changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.
For me it's quite clear that its meaning is appearance.
If nobody disagree, I'll go ahead with other words.
Next ones are ἁρπαγμὸν (G725) and ἡγήσατο (G2233)
Thank you.
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8
If you're not able to read Greek yet, we'll certainly help you learn Greek as you ask questions. B-Greek really is about reading Greek, though.Eduardo Ortega wrote:Then I opened http://pace.mcmaster.ca/york/york/showT ... yout=split
to see the translation because I'm not able to read greek (yet).
If you want to know the meaning of these words, the easiest approach is to look in the Bauer dictionary, or for the kind of approach you are taking, in the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament or in Louw and Nida. Are you anywhere near a library?
The kind of word study approach you are taking is good, but to do it right, you have to be able to read the Greek sentences, not just English translations. The works I mention above are written by people who can do that. Also, a good commentary on Philippians may be helpful.
One more thing: if you can't read Greek, you're really not in a position to teach people what the Greek says. Perhaps you can focus on teaching what the passage says, in translation, instead?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8
Whatever. I don't have the time to learn Greek now.Jonathan Robie wrote:If you're not able to read Greek yet, we'll certainly help you learn Greek as you ask questions. B-Greek really is about reading Greek, though.Eduardo Ortega wrote:Then I opened http://pace.mcmaster.ca/york/york/showT ... yout=split
to see the translation because I'm not able to read greek (yet).
If you want to know the meaning of these words, the easiest approach is to look in the Bauer dictionary, or for the kind of approach you are taking, in the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament or in Louw and Nida. Are you anywhere near a library?
The kind of word study approach you are taking is good, but to do it right, you have to be able to read the Greek sentences, not just English translations. The works I mention above are written by people who can do that. Also, a good commentary on Philippians may be helpful.
One more thing: if you can't read Greek, you're really not in a position to teach people what the Greek says. Perhaps you can focus on teaching what the passage says, in translation, instead?
That's why I seeked help from people that already know it.
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8
I'm not teaching anyone here. I just decided for myself (because I need to go ahead -and because for me it's clear-) that μορφῇ means appearance in that verse.
PS: how can I send the private messages from the Outbox?
PS: how can I send the private messages from the Outbox?
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8
Sure, but as someone who speaks two languages, I'm sure you recognize how difficult it is to explain what gets lost in translation from a Spanish text to someone who does not know Spanish, and how difficult it is for anyone who does not know Spanish to really know what a text says beyond what the translations convey. Greek is the same way.Eduardo Ortega wrote:Whatever. I don't have the time to learn Greek now.
That's why I seeked help from people that already know it.
The works I refer you to above are probably your best bet for word meanings. If you say you don't have time to learn Greek, though, B-Greek is not the place for you. We welcome people who are learning the language, and will help with that, but B-Greek is a forum for people who are at least in the process of learning the language. Even in the beginner's forum.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8
But you do seem to be planning to teach on this passage, and to teach on the meaning of the Greek text.Eduardo Ortega wrote:I'm not teaching anyone here. I just decided for myself (because I need to go ahead -and because for me it's clear-) that μορφῇ means appearance in that verse.
Here's an allergy I have: when I hear the phrase "in the original Greek", what follows is usually hogwash, because so many Christians have convinced themselves that they can have deep insights into Greek without ever learning the language, unlike any other language known to man. If you don't know Greek, use translations, and don't pretend to be an expert on the meaning of Greek words. Especially if you haven't even taken the trouble to look up the words in the Bauer dictionary.Eduardo Ortega wrote:I need to understand this because I have to teach about these verses.
It's ironic that the passage we are discussing is Philippians 2:6-8.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8
Jonathan may sound harsh, but I can fully sympathize with his concerns. You yourself wrote:
That said, your attitude and method is admirable. You want to know and understand the text and the language and aren't afraid to take the hard route. The only problem seems to be that you don't know yet what to expect of Greek exegesis and Greek studies, and therefore our answers can't meet your current needs. But don't give up. Learning and understanding Greek - and text written in Greek - requires patience. You may need give rest to some text or question and come back to it later, after you have first learnt something else. Taking the most difficult texts and subjects first isn't necessarily the best way to learn Greek...
That's completely true. But it means that the verses have already been analyzed to death by countless scholars, and we can add nothing to that here. If you want to know the possibilities and reasoning for interpretations/translations of certain verses, find (or ask here for) some good freely available article about the subject, or buy a good commentary. http://bestcommentaries.com/book/3702/0 ... r-t-obrien could be the best your money can buy.I've read about 40 translations, and my idea is that when translators came to this passage, it wasn't clear for most of them. The senses they took vary, but what I also can see is that the theological view of Jesus had also a high impact on their interpretation.
That said, your attitude and method is admirable. You want to know and understand the text and the language and aren't afraid to take the hard route. The only problem seems to be that you don't know yet what to expect of Greek exegesis and Greek studies, and therefore our answers can't meet your current needs. But don't give up. Learning and understanding Greek - and text written in Greek - requires patience. You may need give rest to some text or question and come back to it later, after you have first learnt something else. Taking the most difficult texts and subjects first isn't necessarily the best way to learn Greek...