Eduardo Ortega wrote:David Lim wrote:Eduardo Ortega wrote:About the phrase in verse 6 υπαρχων ουχ αρπαγμον ηγησατο το ειναι ισα θεω there are two major trends that I can see in translations and comments:
1) the ones that say that there it says "being equal to God..."
2) the ones that say that there it says "he didn't consider to grasp an equality with God"
If I take option 1), I don't find much sense in the rest of the phrase.
But what is your opinion based just on linguistic grounds? What is the right sense of this, 1) or 2)?
Thanks.
Firstly the part that you quote is not the phrase you are referring to. "ος" is the relative pronoun. "εν μορφη θεου υπαρχων" is an adverbial phrase modifying "ος". "ουχ αρπαγμον ηγησατο το ειναι ισα θεω" is the verb phrase with "ος" as the subject. "το ειναι ισα θεω" functions like a noun phrase as the main object of "ηγησατο". "ουχ" modifies "αρπαγμον" and "ουχ αρπαγμον" is the second "object" of "ηγησατο". Thus the phrase you are referring to corresponds to "ουχ αρπαγμον ηγησατο το ειναι ισα θεω" which means "considered being equal/alike to God not [to be] robbery" / "considered [that] being equal/alike to God [was] not robbery". I would say your second option is only an interpretation of the original text, if you mean "he did not consider grasping an equality with God" ("consider to grasp ..." is incorrect English), because it is clearly different.
I see that I changed the words when I referred to option 2), because I talked about "grasping" and there si no verb "to grasp" in the text.
I was refering to this kind of translations, for example the ASV:
who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,
And the word ἁρπαγμὸν, as I've read, could mean "a thing to be seized".
I hope you see your mistake here. In the one instance, you stated that there is no
verb meaning "to grasp" in the text, then you mention the
noun that means "thing to be grasped." You understand, don't you?, that there doesn't need to be such a verb in the text since we have the noun with that general meaning.
Eduardo Ortega wrote:The are some other versions in that sense, like the NET:
who though he existed in the form of God
did not regard equality with God
as something to be grasped,
Or the NAS:
who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
The Bible "Orthodox Jewish Bible":
Who, though existing in the demut of the mode of being of Elohim, nevertheless Moshiach did not regard being equal with G-d as a thing to be seized
Orthodox Jewish Bibles do not include the New Testament. I'm not sure where you got this, but it didn't come from Orthodox Judaism.
Eduardo Ortega wrote:Also the "New World Translation":
who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God
Those are examples of versions that I was referring as "2)".
I see that the way I expressed it is not a "direct translation", but still the understanding is the same (or not? may be I'm not understanding these translations well).
Again, pull it back to the Greek:
ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ, ἀλλὰ ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν μορφὴν δούλου λαβών, ἐν ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων γενόμενος...
How can someone have the same way of thinking as Jesus in these terms? Do not consider greatness something to take hold of or grasp. Do not consider it an important thing in life to have power over other people. Become a servant of all and do your best to empty yourself of your desires for greatness. This is what is being taught here, don't you think?
"Who, though he was in the form of God, did not consider being equal to God something to grasp hold of, but he emptied himself, having taken the form of a servant, having come to be in the similitude of men..."
Though you may be in a position of greatness, you should not consider that something important and worth holding on to. Rather, you should be willing to let go of it and give everything you have for the betterment of others.
That's what it says to me.
Jason A. Hare
Rehovot, Israel