Possible parentheses (1 John 1:1)

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Possible parentheses (1 John 1:1)

Postby John Brainard » July 4th, 2012, 12:20 pm

1 John 1:1-4 we see an interesting sentence. English translators broke it down into 4 verses and at times I think that by doing that they complicated the text. On the other hand they have simplified.

In verse 1 we read ο ην απ αρχης ο ακηκοαμεν ο εωρακαμεν τοις οφθαλμοις ημων ο εθεασαμεθα και αι χειρες ημων εψηλαφησαν περι του λογου της ζωης

The NIV translates it "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched —this we proclaim concerning the Word of life"

This we proclaim is actually found in verse 3. Yet it make perfect sense to translate it this way since απαγγελλομεν is what they were declaring in verse 1.

With out that verb (απαγγελλομεν) this text makes a lot less sense.

Is it possible that περι του λογου της ζωης is a parentheses?

John
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Re: Possible parentheses

Postby timothy_p_mcmahon » July 4th, 2012, 1:52 pm

Verse 2 is parenthetical. I don't know how περι του λογου της ζωης could be included in that parenthesis or form another parenthesis of its own.
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Re: Possible parentheses

Postby John Brainard » July 4th, 2012, 2:10 pm

Timothy,

Thank you for you response. I recognize that verse 2 is parenthetic but the περι του λογου της ζωης of verse 1 doesn't seem to fit completely with the previous ideas.

What we have heard, what we have seen, what we have looked upon and what our hands have handled then we have concerning the word of life.

Lets do it this way The underlined area define the text The parentheses is in parentheses.

What we have heard (concerning the word of life). This might make sense if we understand the word of life as the Message.

what we have seen (concerning the word of life). (This doesn't work) How do you see the Gospel message

what we have looked upon (concerning the word of life). (This doesn't make sense) How do you look upon the Gospel message?

what our hands have handled (concerning the word of life). How do you handle the Gospel message? (This doesn't make sense)

If it is parenthetic then it is an interruption in thought. But the question still stands as to why John inserted it there.

Thank you for your response

John
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Re: Possible parentheses

Postby Jonathan Robie » July 4th, 2012, 2:37 pm

John - how would you do that in Greek?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: Possible parentheses

Postby John Brainard » July 4th, 2012, 2:53 pm

Do you mean how would I rewrite this segment of scripture?

John
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Re: Possible parentheses

Postby Jonathan Robie » July 4th, 2012, 3:01 pm

John Brainard wrote:Do you mean how would I rewrite this segment of scripture?


B-Greek is about Greek, not about translations. I think you want to say something about the following text:

1 Ὃ ἦν ἀπ' ἀρχῆς, ὃ ἀκηκόαμεν, ὃ ἑωράκαμεν τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς ἡμῶν, ὃ ἐθεασάμεθα καὶ αἱ χεῖρες ἡμῶν ἐψηλάφησαν, περὶ τοῦ λόγου τῆς ζωῆς- 2 καὶ ἡ ζωὴ ἐφανερώθη, καὶ ἑωράκαμεν καὶ μαρτυροῦμεν καὶ ἀπαγγέλλομεν ὑμῖν τὴν ζωὴν τὴν αἰώνιον ἥτις ἦν πρὸς τὸν πατέρα καὶ ἐφανερώθη ἡμῖν- 3 ὃ ἑωράκαμεν καὶ ἀκηκόαμεν ἀπαγγέλλομεν καὶ ὑμῖν, ἵνα καὶ ὑμεῖς κοινωνίαν ἔχητε μεθ' ἡμῶν· καὶ ἡ κοινωνία δὲ ἡ ἡμετέρα μετὰ τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ μετὰ τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ· 4 καὶ ταῦτα γράφομεν ἡμεῖς ἵνα ἡ χαρὰ ἡμῶν ᾖ πεπληρωμένη.


I'm not quite sure what you are saying about it though, or whether you have a specific question about this text.

The punctuation here shows verse 2 as parenthetical, as a whole.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: Possible parentheses

Postby John Brainard » July 4th, 2012, 3:07 pm

My question is in regards to a possible parentheses.

If this isn't a Greek question then I extend my apologies.

περι του λογου της ζωης seems to be some sort of interruption. In English we would most likely call that a parentheses. I am sure that Greek speakers dealt with thoughts that popped into their head and wrote them down as they were penning a letter. Would that be called a parentheses in Greek?


John
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Re: Possible parentheses

Postby Jonathan Robie » July 4th, 2012, 3:36 pm

As I see it, the entire second verse is what you are calling a parenthesis:

Code: Select all
1 Ὃ ἦν ἀπ' ἀρχῆς, ὃ ἀκηκόαμεν, ὃ ἑωράκαμεν τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς ἡμῶν, ὃ ἐθεασάμεθα καὶ αἱ χεῖρες ἡμῶν ἐψηλάφησαν, περὶ τοῦ λόγου τῆς ζωῆς

        - 2 καὶ ἡ ζωὴ ἐφανερώθη,
            καὶ ἑωράκαμεν καὶ μαρτυροῦμεν καὶ ἀπαγγέλλομεν ὑμῖν τὴν ζωὴν τὴν αἰώνιον
            ἥτις ἦν πρὸς τὸν πατέρα καὶ ἐφανερώθη ἡμῖν-

3 ὃ ἑωράκαμεν καὶ ἀκηκόαμεν ἀπαγγέλλομεν καὶ ὑμῖν, ἵνα καὶ ὑμεῖς κοινωνίαν ἔχητε μεθ' ἡμῶν· καὶ ἡ κοινωνία δὲ ἡ ἡμετέρα μετὰ τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ μετὰ τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ· 4 καὶ ταῦτα γράφομεν ἡμεῖς ἵνα ἡ χαρὰ ἡμῶν ᾖ πεπληρωμένη.


I think you are suggesting that just περὶ τοῦ λόγου τῆς ζωῆς should be treated as a parenthesis, like this:

Code: Select all
1 Ὃ ἦν ἀπ' ἀρχῆς, ὃ ἀκηκόαμεν, ὃ ἑωράκαμεν τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς ἡμῶν, ὃ ἐθεασάμεθα καὶ αἱ χεῖρες ἡμῶν ἐψηλάφησαν,

       περὶ τοῦ λόγου τῆς ζωῆς

- 2 καὶ ἡ ζωὴ ἐφανερώθη, καὶ ἑωράκαμεν καὶ μαρτυροῦμεν καὶ ἀπαγγέλλομεν ὑμῖν τὴν ζωὴν τὴν αἰώνιον ἥτις ἦν πρὸς τὸν πατέρα καὶ ἐφανερώθη ἡμῖν- 3 ὃ ἑωράκαμεν καὶ ἀκηκόαμεν ἀπαγγέλλομεν καὶ ὑμῖν, ἵνα καὶ ὑμεῖς κοινωνίαν ἔχητε μεθ' ἡμῶν· καὶ ἡ κοινωνία δὲ ἡ ἡμετέρα μετὰ τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ μετὰ τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ· 4 καὶ ταῦτα γράφομεν ἡμεῖς ἵνα ἡ χαρὰ ἡμῶν ᾖ πεπληρωμένη.


Did I understand you correctly? This doesn't seem right to me. I like the first approach better.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: Possible parentheses

Postby John Brainard » July 4th, 2012, 3:38 pm

I am heading for a cook out. Will be back later to respond.

Thank you for being patient with me. I am not good at conveying thought.

John
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Re: Possible parentheses (1 John 1:1)

Postby John Brainard » July 4th, 2012, 7:04 pm

#2 was what I had in mind.

Interestingly enough I picked up a few of my Commentaries and W. Harris Hall III seems to view as I do. Not sure if that is important or not.

But yes, you understand what I am saying.

John
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