Ephesians 1:22…the feet as head over all things

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Ephesians 1:22…the feet as head over all things

Postby goyomarquez » July 23rd, 2012, 6:26 pm

Ephesians 1:22 22 καὶ πάντα ὑπέταξεν ὑπὸ τοὺς πόδας αὐτοῦ, καὶ αὐτὸν ἔδωκεν κεφαλὴν ὑπὲρ πάντα τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ,
23 ἥτις ἐστὶν τὸ σῶμα αὐτοῦ, τὸ πλήρωμα τοῦ τὰ πάντα ἐν πᾶσιν πληρουμένου.

Have been mulling this scripture over for a couple years and the usual translations don't seem to make a lot of sense.
I'm thinking that αὐτὸν refers to πόδας not to αὐτοῦ.

So I would translate "literally as follows:
And all things he put under the feet of him, and (same, these, them) made head over all things…the church which is the body of him, the fullness of him, who all things in all fills.

Seems to fit the context better since the feet of him, given the analogy of, "the church which is the body of him," clearly refers to the Church. The sense of the verse is already that he has put all things under the church, i.e. the feet of him, it is therefore quite consistent with the sense of the verse to say that he has made them, the feet head over all things.

It seems almost a play on words, a sort of humorous expression, i.e. He has put all things under his feet, and made the feet the head over all things.

He then finishes by emphasizing that he is speaking of the church which is his body.

Would it be possible to translate αὐτὸν as, "same," "these," "them" or something similar?

Thanks
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Re: Ephesians 1:22…the feet as head over all things

Postby timothy_p_mcmahon » July 23rd, 2012, 8:11 pm

αὐτὸν is singular. πόδας is plural. Your idea fails a simple test of grammatical concord.
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Re: Ephesians 1:22…the feet as head over all things

Postby goyomarquez » July 23rd, 2012, 8:51 pm

timothy_p_mcmahon wrote:αὐτὸν is singular. πόδας is plural. Your idea fails a simple test of grammatical concord.

Is it possible then that αὐτὸν refers to ἐκκλησίᾳ , which I take it is singular?
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Re: Ephesians 1:22…the feet as head over all things

Postby timothy_p_mcmahon » July 24th, 2012, 12:04 am

αὐτὸν is masculine. ἐκκλησίᾳ is feminine. Same issue.
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Re: Ephesians 1:22…the feet as head over all things

Postby David Lim » July 24th, 2012, 5:27 am

goyomarquez wrote:Ephesians 1:22 22 καὶ πάντα ὑπέταξεν ὑπὸ τοὺς πόδας αὐτοῦ, καὶ αὐτὸν ἔδωκεν κεφαλὴν ὑπὲρ πάντα τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ,
23 ἥτις ἐστὶν τὸ σῶμα αὐτοῦ, τὸ πλήρωμα τοῦ τὰ πάντα ἐν πᾶσιν πληρουμένου.

Have been mulling this scripture over for a couple years and the usual translations don't seem to make a lot of sense.
I'm thinking that αὐτὸν refers to πόδας not to αὐτοῦ.


Besides what Timothy said, your second suggestion cannot work also because "αυτον" cannot point to something not yet in focus, and "η εκκλησια" has not even been mentioned yet. Also, "παντα υπεταξεν υπο τους ποδας αυτου" is just a figurative expression for "he subjected all things completely to him", and "αυτον εδωκεν κεφαλην υπερ παντα τη εκκλησια" is likewise figurative for "he gave him to the assembly as the one with complete authority over all things". Does that make sense?
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Re: Ephesians 1:22…the feet as head over all things

Postby Barry Hofstetter » July 24th, 2012, 6:16 am

First, please remember that forum rules require the use of a real name. A moderator will help you set up your account to display this if you request it.

Secondly, just to review, a pronoun gets its number and gender from its antecedent. It gets its case from how its used grammatically in the sentence. Any beginning grammar should help with this concept.
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Re: Ephesians 1:22…the feet as head over all things

Postby goyomarquez » July 24th, 2012, 11:31 am

David Lim wrote:Besides what Timothy said, your second suggestion cannot work also because "αυτον" cannot point to something not yet in focus, and "η εκκλησια" has not even been mentioned yet. Also, "παντα υπεταξεν υπο τους ποδας αυτου" is just a figurative expression for "he subjected all things completely to him", and "αυτον εδωκεν κεφαλην υπερ παντα τη εκκλησια" is likewise figurative for "he gave him to the assembly as the one with complete authority over all things". Does that make sense?


David it makes sense, in the sense, that I understand your argument but I can make no sense of the part of the expression " gave him to the assembly as…"

What could it possibly mean that God gave Jesus to the assembly?


Thanks

Goyo Marquez
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Re: Ephesians 1:22…the feet as head over all things

Postby timothy_p_mcmahon » July 26th, 2012, 11:48 am

goyomarquez wrote:What could it possibly mean that God gave Jesus to the assembly?

The answer to that question strays more into theology than is appropriate for this board, but it seems that God giving Christ to the church is a readily comprehensible idea.

It's also possible that Paul's thought is betraying its Hebrew origins and εδωκεν means something more like 'placed' (as Hebrew נתן).
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Re: Ephesians 1:22…the feet as head over all things

Postby David Lim » July 26th, 2012, 1:33 pm

timothy_p_mcmahon wrote:
goyomarquez wrote:What could it possibly mean that God gave Jesus to the assembly?

The answer to that question strays more into theology than is appropriate for this board, but it seems that God giving Christ to the church is a readily comprehensible idea.

It's also possible that Paul's thought is betraying its Hebrew origins and εδωκεν means something more like 'placed' (as Hebrew נתן).


Indeed. I think we can say without going into interpretation that "gave him as head ..." has to imply "made him the head ..."
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