Lu 1:58

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Lu 1:58

Postby Roy Fredrick » October 24th, 2012, 9:41 am

Another discrepancy by the translators? Lu 1:58 And her neighbours and her relatives heard how the Lord had magnified her with His mercy, and they congratulated1 her.
1. συγχαιρών συνεχαιρον congratulated Henry George Liddell. Robert Scott. A Greek-English Lexicon
1Ch 25:5 All these were the sons of Heman the king's seer in the words of God, to lift up the horn.
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Re: Lu 1:58

Postby cwconrad » October 24th, 2012, 10:23 am

Roy Fredrick wrote:Another discrepancy by the translators? Lu 1:58 And her neighbours and her relatives heard how the Lord had magnified her with His mercy, and they congratulated1 her.
1. συγχαιρών συνεχαιρον congratulated Henry George Liddell. Robert Scott. A Greek-English Lexicon


What is the discrepancy here that you intend to highlight? If you really want to raise a question, you can't just set before us any sort of flotsam or jetsam and wait for some observant member of the crew to take note of it and react. Moreover, our forum rules indicate that the Greek text under discussion should be cited; here it is:
Luke 1:58 καὶ ἤκουσαν οἱ περίοικοι καὶ οἱ συγγενεῖς αὐτῆς ὅτι ἐμεγάλυνεν κύριος τὸ ἔλεος αὐτοῦ μετ᾿ αὐτῆς καὶ συνέχαιρον αὐτῇ.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
… ἐπειδὴ καὶ τὸν οἶνον ἠξίους
πίνειν, συνεκποτέ’ ἐστί σοι καὶ τὴν τρύγα Aristophanes, Plutus 1085
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Re: Lu 1:58

Postby Roy Fredrick » October 24th, 2012, 4:09 pm

cwconrad wrote:
Roy Fredrick wrote:Another discrepancy by the translators? Lu 1:58 And her neighbours and her relatives heard how the Lord had magnified her with His mercy, and they congratulated1 her.
1. συγχαιρών συνεχαιρον congratulated Henry George Liddell. Robert Scott. A Greek-English Lexicon


What is the discrepancy here that you intend to highlight? If you really want to raise a question, you can't just set before us any sort of flotsam or jetsam and wait for some observant member of the crew to take note of it and react. Moreover, our forum rules indicate that the Greek text under discussion should be cited; here it is:
Luke 1:58 καὶ ἤκουσαν οἱ περίοικοι καὶ οἱ συγγενεῖς αὐτῆς ὅτι ἐμεγάλυνεν κύριος τὸ ἔλεος αὐτοῦ μετ᾿ αὐτῆς καὶ συνέχαιρον αὐτῇ.
Why do you think I quoted the word "CONGRATULATED? Are we playing a game here or or we earnestly trying to communicate?
I will spell it out for the novice: μετ᾿ is only used one time, so to say "they rejoiced her" would not be correct
Luk 1:58 and the neighbours and her kindred heard that the Lord was making His kindness great with her, and they were rejoicing with her.
The discrepancy here is that most of the translators have given the meaning as "they rejoiced with her".
Whereas the correct meaning of the word "συνεχαιρον" is Luke 1:58 (DRA) 58 And her neighbours and kinsfolks heard that the Lord had shewed his great mercy towards her, and they congratulated her.
συγχαιρών συνεχαιρον congratulated Henry George Liddell. Robert Scott. A Greek-English Lexicon

You could parse out συγ χαιρών as "rejoice with" but "congratulated" is much more articulate.
Here are some of the words for rejoice: αγάλλιασις αγάλλομαι rejoice, jubilant, shout for joy, exult, glory
χαίρω χαιρομαι εχαρησαν rejoice, I am joyful, delight, be happy; make happy, gladden
χαρά delight in, joy, gladden, elation, glee, exhilaration, mirth, rejoicing
1Ch 25:5 All these were the sons of Heman the king's seer in the words of God, to lift up the horn.
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Re: Lu 1:58

Postby Alan Patterson » October 24th, 2012, 5:52 pm

Roy,

Just so you know, there is a Beginners Forum for those in the early stages of learning Greek.
χαρις υμιν και ειρηνη,
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Re: Lu 1:58

Postby cwconrad » October 24th, 2012, 6:27 pm

Roy Fredrick wrote:
cwconrad wrote:
Roy Fredrick wrote:Another discrepancy by the translators? Lu 1:58 And her neighbours and her relatives heard how the Lord had magnified her with His mercy, and they congratulated1 her.
1. συγχαιρών συνεχαιρον congratulated Henry George Liddell. Robert Scott. A Greek-English Lexicon


What is the discrepancy here that you intend to highlight? If you really want to raise a question, you can't just set before us any sort of flotsam or jetsam and wait for some observant member of the crew to take note of it and react. Moreover, our forum rules indicate that the Greek text under discussion should be cited; here it is:
Luke 1:58 καὶ ἤκουσαν οἱ περίοικοι καὶ οἱ συγγενεῖς αὐτῆς ὅτι ἐμεγάλυνεν κύριος τὸ ἔλεος αὐτοῦ μετ᾿ αὐτῆς καὶ συνέχαιρον αὐτῇ.
Why do you think I quoted the word "CONGRATULATED? Are we playing a game here or or we earnestly trying to communicate?
I will spell it out for the novice: μετ᾿ is only used one time, so to say "they rejoiced her" would not be correct
Luk 1:58 and the neighbours and her kindred heard that the Lord was making His kindness great with her, and they were rejoicing with her.
The discrepancy here is that most of the translators have given the meaning as "they rejoiced with her".
Whereas the correct meaning of the word "συνεχαιρον" is Luke 1:58 (DRA) 58 And her neighbours and kinsfolks heard that the Lord had shewed his great mercy towards her, and they congratulated her.
συγχαιρών συνεχαιρον congratulated Henry George Liddell. Robert Scott. A Greek-English Lexicon

You could parse out συγ χαιρών as "rejoice with" but "congratulated" is much more articulate.
Here are some of the words for rejoice: αγάλλιασις αγάλλομαι rejoice, jubilant, shout for joy, exult, glory
χαίρω χαιρομαι εχαρησαν rejoice, I am joyful, delight, be happy; make happy, gladden
χαρά delight in, joy, gladden, elation, glee, exhilaration, mirth, rejoicing


Thank you for taking the time and effort to explain what you meant by a "discrepancy by the translators." You didn't say "discrepancy between the versions" and you didn't set forth originally the alternative versions between which you thought there might be some discrepancy. Now that you've done so, I still don't see what the fuss is about. I am quite content with the version "they congratulated her" for συνέχαιρον αὐτῇ -- but I don't discern any difference of meaning between that version and "they rejoiced with her." The verb συγχαίρω is a compound with the prefix σύν ("with"), this verb regularly takes a dative of the person with whom the subject is rejoicing, hence the dative of the pronoun αὐτῇ. The fundamental sense of συγχαίρω is "share the joy/happiness" with a person who is rejoicing.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
… ἐπειδὴ καὶ τὸν οἶνον ἠξίους
πίνειν, συνεκποτέ’ ἐστί σοι καὶ τὴν τρύγα Aristophanes, Plutus 1085
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Re: Lu 1:58

Postby Barry Hofstetter » October 24th, 2012, 8:08 pm

Let me add that "congratulate" and "rejoice with" are both part of the semantic range of the verb, the difference being simply one of nuance. I personally think "rejoice with" captures the force a bit better in the context of Lu 1:58.

Now, Roy, the warning you were given in the other thread counts for other threads as well, just so that you are aware.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
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Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
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Re: Lu 1:58

Postby David Lim » October 24th, 2012, 8:31 pm

Roy Fredrick wrote:Are we playing a game here or or we earnestly trying to communicate?


As our kind moderators have already said, it is you who did not communicate anything clearly and appropriately. This post of yours is the first I have seen that is written in complete sentences, but as Carl has pointed out, you didn't at the beginning say why you thought the usual translation was incorrect. Also, based on your kind of reasons I can say that your translation has serious "discrepancies" too:
(1) "μετ" does not mean "towards" (LSJ)
(2) "had shewed his great mercy" is hardly articulate compared to "was magnifying his mercy"
(3) "great mercy" is not in the original text at all
(4) "congratulated her" is wrong because "αυτη" is not accusative and hence cannot be the direct object of "συνεχαιρον"
(5) "συνεχαιρον" means "were rejoicing with" (LSJ)
If any of these reasons are invalid (and I never said all were valid), then don't use these kinds of reasons, insisting that we agree. Hope you understand what we are trying to say.
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Re: Lu 1:58

Postby Jonathan Robie » October 24th, 2012, 8:54 pm

Roy Fredrick wrote:I will spell it out for the novice


With respect, Roy, Carl is no novice. You clearly are a novice, and most of the people you are talking to are real experts on Greek. There's nothing wrong with being a beginner, but I do think you should post in the Beginner's Forum, and assume that experts may well know more than you do.

I'm moving this thread to the Beginner's Forum.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: Lu 1:58

Postby Roy Fredrick » October 25th, 2012, 2:09 pm

David Lim wrote:
Roy Fredrick wrote:Are we playing a game here or or we earnestly trying to communicate?


As our kind moderators have already said, it is you who did not communicate anything clearly and appropriately. This post of yours is the first I have seen that is written in complete sentences, but as Carl has pointed out, you didn't at the beginning say why you thought the usual translation was incorrect. Also, based on your kind of reasons I can say that your translation has serious "discrepancies" too:
(1) "μετ" does not mean "towards" (LSJ) (2) "had shewed his great mercy" is hardly articulate compared to "was magnifying his mercy" (3) "great mercy" is not in the original text at all (4) "congratulated her" is wrong because "αυτη" is not accusative and hence cannot be the direct object of "συνεχαιρον"(5) "συνεχαιρον" means "were rejoicing with" (LSJ)
αὐτῇ Because the reflexive pronoun reflects the action back to the subject, it is not itself the subject, but is an an object of the verb. Please don't be an "I see a weasel." Read the whole thing and present it as it is presented in Henry George Liddell. Robert Scott. A Greek-English Lexicon[/b][/u]
That was NOT my translation, I simply quoted that verse to show that I am not alone with the use of the word συνεχαιρον. Why do you ignore my original post? "Lu 1:58 And her neighbours and her relatives heard how the Lord had magnified her with His mercy, and together they congratulated1 her."1. συγχαιρών συνεχαιρον congratulated Henry George Liddell. Robert Scott. A Greek-English Lexicon

συνεχαιρον Verb-Imperfect Indictive Active-3rd Person plural
αὐτῇ Personal Possessive pronoun Dative Femine 3rd person Singular the accent on the penult, is the only thing that distinguishes the demonstrative pronoun αὕτη from the third person pronoun αὐτή. Because the reflexive pronoun reflects the action back to the subject, it is not itself the subject, but is an an object of the verb.
The dative case indicates to one or for whom the action occurs.

The accusative case indicates the extent to which an action occurs or the referent about which an assertion is made.
"μετ" A preposition is a word that usually occurs before a noun or a substantive in order to link that word to a preceding term as a modifer, depending on the thought being expressed by the author.
ὅτι is a conjunction, a particle that connects two clauses. NT writers frequently use ὅτι to introduce a clause that serves as the object.and what we make the subject of the Verb which follows ὅτι freq. stands in the preceding clause,

Terminology ultima, penult, antepenult Only the last three syllables of a word may be accented
acute, grave, circumflex A circumflex may stand only on the last 2 syllables.
A circumflex may stand only on a long syllable. An accented penult will have a circumflex if and only if
the penult is long and the ultima is short.

Special Rule for Verbs
For verbs, the accent is recessive. That is, within the constraints of the general rules, the accent will stand on the syllable closest to the beginning of the word.
For example, in the case of ἀκολουθήσατε, rule #1 prevents the accent from being placed on any of the first three syllables, but because the ultima is short, the accent can come all the way back to the antepenult. Because this is a verb, the accent must come all the way back to the antepenult.
ῥύομαι, ῥύσις ῥύσιoς Att. εως, η, (fr. ῥέω to flow) a flux, runnung; a stream, course
Originally, words were not written with accent marks. Hegelochus, who in declaiming a line of Euripides ending with γαλήν' ὁρῶ = ("I see a calm") pronounced a circumflex instead of an acute, and sent the audience into roars of laughter: γαλῆν ὁρῶ = "I see a weasel."

In a retrenching effort, Greek grammarians encouraged the writing of the accent mark. But the
effort succeeded only in retaining a stress on the accented syllable. Distinctions
of pitch between the different accents were lost.

Voice refers to the relationship between subject and verb. In English, it answers the
question, is the subject active or passive with respect to the action?

The dative case indicates to one or for whom and action occurs.
A Grammar of the Greek New Testament, A. T. Robertson

Accents Written accentuation of Greek texts began to occur in the 4th Cent. B.C. but it was not systematically practiced until around 200 B.C.
Accents are not included in the oldest uncial manuscripts of the GNT. The earliest of these to have any accents is the Cambridge manuscript D, dated ib the 6th Cent. A.D.
In the earliest use accents indicated changes in pitch. However, the different accents have come to signify no difference in sound value; they indicate only that one is to stress the accented syllable.
James Hewett in New Testament Greek, A Beginning and Intermediate Grammar.
A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, A. T. Robertson

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
1Ch 25:5 All these were the sons of Heman the king's seer in the words of God, to lift up the horn.
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Re: Lu 1:58

Postby Jonathan Robie » October 25th, 2012, 2:29 pm

Roy, I think most of us know how accents, voice, mood, etc. are used in Greek, and we know how to look up the meaning of words. Did you have a question? Do you want to verify your understanding of anything in particular?

You seem to believe there is a significant difference between "congratulate" and "rejoice with" in English. Can you say a little about the distinction you see, and why you believe that this Greek word makes the same distinction?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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