Mt 1:19 AUTHN object or subject

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Oun Kwon
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Mt 1:19 AUTHN object or subject

Post by Oun Kwon » June 3rd, 2011, 4:51 pm

This is my first posting on the B-Greek forum - I hope everything goes right and I behave well on this route. Good-bye to B-Greek e-mailing ;-<

Mt 1:19 Ἰωσὴφ δὲ ὁ ἀνὴρ αὐτῆς,
δίκαιος ὢν καὶ μὴ θέλων αὐτὴν [παρα]δειγματίσαι,
ἐβουλήθη λάθρᾳ ἀπολῦσαι αὐτήν.

Regarding MH QELWN AUTHN PARADEIGMATISAI, most reads as if Joseph did not want expose her to public disgrace. It seems to me AUTHN is taken as the object of QELWN.
How about taking this as the subject of the infinitive PARADEIGMATISAI? In that case, it would make sense to see Joseph did not want to see her bring disgrace on her family.

Oun Kwon

Ref: Matthew J. Marohl, Joseph's Dilemma: ‘Honour Killing’ in the Birth Narrative of Matthew (Cambridge: James Clark & Co., 2008)
Book reviewed by Jamie Pitts - Literature and Theology (2010) 24 (4): 451-453.
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: Mt 1:19 AUTHN objcet or subject

Post by Stephen Carlson » June 3rd, 2011, 5:30 pm

Have you considered the possibility that αὐτήν is the object of the aorist infinitive παραδειγματίσαι?

According to BDAG, it seems that this verb is transitive and your reading does not have an (expressed) object.

Stephen
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Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Mt 1:19 AUTHN objcet or subject

Post by Barry Hofstetter » June 3rd, 2011, 6:10 pm

Have you considered the possibility that αὐτήν is the object of the aorist infinitive παραδειγματίσαι?

According to BDAG, it seems that this verb is transitive and your reading does not have an (expressed) object.
This is certainly correct, and this is how all the translation take it as well.

Besides, I think this makes the best sense contextually.

N.E. Barry Hofstetter
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
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Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
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cwconrad
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Re: Mt 1:19 AUTHN objcet or subject

Post by cwconrad » June 3rd, 2011, 6:33 pm

Oun, have you ever worked all the way through a first-year Greek textbook? I ask because your questions have often given me the impression that you are working at understanding NT Greek texts with a parsing guide to tell you the grammatical forms and one or more translations and/or commentaries to help you piece the text together. You don't seem to know the standard grammatical structures -- forgive me if I'm mistaken about that, but I think you might do well to work through one of the standard textbooks; a lot of people seem to like Mounce, but if you use Mounce you really need to go through the workbook as well rather than just the textbook by itself. If you haven't worked your way through a textbook, you should; if, on the other hand, you have, I think you might do well to go back through it again and review it. We can help you with questions that arise in your studies, but it really looks to me like you need to be doing something more systematic than piecing parts of individual NT Greek texts together.
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
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Oun Kwon
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Re: Mt 1:19 AUTHN objcet or subject

Post by Oun Kwon » June 3rd, 2011, 6:57 pm

AUTHN as an object, yes, it would be the one for the verb PARADEIGMATISAI rather than QELWN (I was looking the sentence as if it were in English).

After reading the book review article mentioned in the reference, it dawned to me that it was not much about disgrace to herself. (Once the marriage pledge broke off, Joseph could not do much about whatever personal disgrace coming to Mary.) But given in the social context (cf. Jn 8:3ff), it must be rather a public disgrace that Mary might bring on her family. (Possibly do with adulterer's death from honor killing - the book's main theme.) Joseph was mulling over the matters: he must be thinking what fate might befall on her - facing a dilemma.

When I see a possibility of AUTHN as the subject of the infinitive, this picture may be well in line with what the Greek text tells. Hence my posting to make sure I get corrected if I'm on a wrong track. So, it is not possible? Or, is it a problem of reading into the text that I have?

Oun Kwon.
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Bill Ross 2
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Re: Mt 1:19 AUTHN objcet or subject

Post by Bill Ross 2 » June 3rd, 2011, 8:19 pm

Oun, I'm thinking that perhaps the word order was what seemed incongruous (odd) to you, since authn appeared before [para]deigmatisai. I don't know if an infinitive, coupled with an object are usually in verb-object order (does anyone know), but it might be that it is a bit unusual for emphasis... "to put her away"...

I'm just speculating here, on why you might have seen it as odd.
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Mark Lightman
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Re: Mt 1:19 AUTHN objcet or subject

Post by Mark Lightman » June 3rd, 2011, 9:01 pm

So, it is not possible?
Hi, Oun,

I would say it is possible but highly unlikely.
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Jason Hare
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Re: Mt 1:19 AUTHN objcet or subject

Post by Jason Hare » June 4th, 2011, 11:39 am

Oun Kwon wrote:AUTHN as an object, yes, it would be the one for the verb PARADEIGMATISAI rather than QELWN (I was looking the sentence as if it were in English).

After reading the book review article mentioned in the reference, it dawned to me that it was not much about disgrace to herself. (Once the marriage pledge broke off, Joseph could not do much about whatever personal disgrace coming to Mary.) But given in the social context (cf. Jn 8:3ff), it must be rather a public disgrace that Mary might bring on her family. (Possibly do with adulterer's death from honor killing - the book's main theme.) Joseph was mulling over the matters: he must be thinking what fate might befall on her - facing a dilemma.

When I see a possibility of AUTHN as the subject of the infinitive, this picture may be well in line with what the Greek text tells. Hence my posting to make sure I get corrected if I'm on a wrong track. So, it is not possible? Or, is it a problem of reading into the text that I have?

Oun Kwon.
I agree with Stephen and the rest. αὐτήν is certainly the object of the infinitive.

Just weighing in.

Jason Hare
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Oun Kwon
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Re: Mt 1:19 AUTHN objcet or subject

Post by Oun Kwon » June 4th, 2011, 2:16 pm

There are two problems for me to solve. One is lexical one - the meaning of the verb PARADEIGMATISAI.
The other is syntax (word order) in Greek, which I like to solve first, though the answer to the first question may have bearing on the other.

If you let me bring up an example in English:
  • He wants her to help.
Which one is the subject of 'help', she or he?
What is the object of 'help?, her or in ellipsis?

If I put it 'He wants for her to help', it seems clearer to see 'she' is the subject of 'help'. The object is in ellipsis.

Now, with a different verb (intransitive):
  • He wants her to run for presidency.
Which is the subject of 'run', she or he?
  • It may mean 'she' is to run.
    It could mean 'he' is about to run for presidency, and he needs her (to agree, to help, etc.).
    i.e. He wants her [for him] to run for presidency.
Again, the sentence 'He wants for her to run for presidency' makes clear about which is the subject of 'run'.

Is there anything in this line of thinking in English applicable to the Greek text in question at all?

As to PARADEIGMATIZW and DEIGMATIZW, are they same in meaning and usage? Is it transitive or intransitive? disgrace someone or get disgraced? If, as I understand, its basic sense has something to do with a public example or spectacle, does it mean that 'Joseph put her a spectacle'? or 'Mary becomes a spectacle'? My reading of the text - 'Joseph wished anything but to see her become as a public disgrace [to her own family].'
Please let me know whether I am on a wrong track and why so? Thank you so much.
Oun Kwon.
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Mt 1:19 AUTHN objcet or subject

Post by Barry Hofstetter » June 4th, 2011, 11:17 pm

Oun Kwon wrote:There are two problems for me to solve. One is lexical one - the meaning of the verb PARADEIGMATISAI.
The other is syntax (word order) in Greek, which I like to solve first, though the answer to the first question may have bearing on the other.

As to PARADEIGMATIZW and DEIGMATIZW, are they same in meaning and usage? Is it transitive or intransitive? disgrace someone or get disgraced? If, as I understand, its basic sense has something to do with a public example or spectacle, does it mean that 'Joseph put her a spectacle'? or 'Mary becomes a spectacle'? My reading of the text - 'Joseph wished anything but to see her become as a public disgrace [to her own family].'
Please let me know whether I am on a wrong track and why so? Thank you so much.
Oun Kwon.
There is nothing in your question that cannot be answered by simply looking at a lexicon. If you do, you'll observe that παραδειγματίζω does not mean "become a public disgrace/spectacle" but "to point out as a public disgrace." That means that αὐτήν necessarily is the object, not the subject.

I seen no substantive difference between the simplex and compound forms of this root.

N.E. Barry Hostetter
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
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Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
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