Matthew 5:3a

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Jason Hare
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Re: Matthew 5:3a

Post by Jason Hare » June 4th, 2011, 2:58 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:
Ruminator wrote:About the Hebrew suggestion... I would not expect that unless it came by way of the a Greek text to Matthew.
Ruminator - I sent you a PM this morning asking you to change your user name to fit our policy on user names and profiles.

Please do so.
Hi, Jonathan.

I've just looked through the Control Panel, and I see no option for changing my username. I don't think this is within a registered user's permissions. If you want it to be, could you check and see if you can change it? I know that on my forum, users cannot change their usernames but must get the admin to do it for them.

Regards,
Jason
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Jason A. Hare
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Matthew 5:3a

Post by Jonathan Robie » June 4th, 2011, 3:02 pm

jaihare wrote:I've just looked through the Control Panel, and I see no option for changing my username. I don't think this is within a registered user's permissions. If you want it to be, could you check and see if you can change it? I know that on my forum, users cannot change their usernames but must get the admin to do it for them.
Hi Jason,

OK, I'll change the announcement to tell people to PM me if they want a name change.

And I'll change your name to the name you use on the B-Greek mailing list, unless you PM me or email with another suggestion. Your password will be unchanged.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Jason Hare
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Re: Matthew 5:3a

Post by Jason Hare » June 4th, 2011, 3:05 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:
jaihare wrote:I've just looked through the Control Panel, and I see no option for changing my username. I don't think this is within a registered user's permissions. If you want it to be, could you check and see if you can change it? I know that on my forum, users cannot change their usernames but must get the admin to do it for them.
Hi Jason,

OK, I'll change the announcement to tell people to PM me if they want a name change.

And I'll change your name to the name you use on the B-Greek mailing list, unless you PM me or email with another suggestion. Your password will be unchanged.
Can I not use "jaihare"? According to your instructions under Policy, it's allowable (like Carl's username). It's "Jai Hare" (which is my name).
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Jason A. Hare
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Matthew 5:3a

Post by Jonathan Robie » June 4th, 2011, 3:08 pm

Let's take this to PM.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Oun Kwon
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Re: Matthew 5:3a

Post by Oun Kwon » June 4th, 2011, 3:31 pm

This is my reading of 5:3a MAKARIOI hOI PTWCOI TWi PNEUMATI,
  • Blessed are the ones [with life] in poverty! — [yes, how blessed] as to the spirit [of their mind];
(with italics in brackets for expansion.)

PTWCOI as 'financially poor' by Nyland may not be incorrect but over-kill with too much in technical writing style, foreign to the beauty of the original text. Of course, she wants it make clear of confusion as as 'poor in quality', 'deficient of spirit', etc. Some uses the word 'destitute' (Rotherham, ISV), which is again an over-kill.

TWi PNEMATI does not construe with hOI PTWCOI but with MAKARIOI. Taken correctly, there is no difference in the meaning and setting of the text btw G-Mt and G-Lk, except that G-Mt clarifies that 'blessedness' is as to one's spirit.
Concordant Literal New Testament (1st ed. 1914) http://www.concordant.org has it 'Happy, in spirit, are the poor'. SourceNT got into a right direction, but, the sense is not 'spiritual' as it is used in modern English. (BTW, both got MAKARIOI wrong - it's not 'happy'). It is in the sense of 'in the realm of the spirit' (in Wuest which wrongly keeps with PTWCOI).

Most of exegesis, commentaries, and sermons try to explain the difference btw the two, with G-Mt for 'spiritually poor' with spiritually oriented tone vs. G-Lk 'materially-poor' with more-socially oriented tone). An example of spiritualized reading of G-Mt text - "~poor for the sake of their spirit" – [the reference of this would be to persons who impoverish themselves for the sake of strengthening their spiritual condition – (after Newman and Stine, A Handbook on the Gospel of Matthew p. 107).

I have not found any other place in the OT as well as NT, the expression 'poor in spirit'. Not to be confused with 'broken spirit' 'humble minded (Mt 5:5). I'm not sure of the phase in DSS Manual of Discipline (X, 26 - XI, 2) aniye ruah (sorry for any incorrect transliteration) can be made to read as 'poor in spirit'.

Cf. Paradoxically sounding, but 'blessed as to spirit' sounds actually same as 'rich in spirit', which is reading in Talmud of Jmmanuel (http://www.tjresearch.info/mt5.htm)

Such has been my journey in Mt 5:3a. Oun Kwon.
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Matthew 5:3a

Post by Jonathan Robie » June 4th, 2011, 3:56 pm

Matthew 5:3a μακάριοι οἱ πτωχοὶ τῷ πνεύματι.

I still take this as a dative of reference.

μακάριοι οἱ πτωχοί - blessed are the poor. Which poor?

οἱ πτωχοὶ τῷ πνεύματι - those who are poor in the spirit, who are spiritually destitute, those who are in need of grace, who come to God as humble beggars.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Lee Moses
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Re: Matthew 5:3a

Post by Lee Moses » June 4th, 2011, 5:18 pm

So, Oun, to put it a little more succinctly, "Blessed in spirit are the poor"? Interesting take. So τῷ πνεύματι would modify μακάριοι rather than οἱ πτωχοὶ? One problem with that would be that the beatitudes are formulaic. So if you want to be consistent, and if you want τῷ πνεύματι to modify μακάριοι, you also will need τῇ καρδίᾳ to modify μακάριοι in verse 8--"Blessed in heart are the pure."
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Bill Ross 2
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Re: Matthew 5:3a

Post by Bill Ross 2 » June 4th, 2011, 5:26 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:Matthew 5:3a μακάριοι οἱ πτωχοὶ τῷ πνεύματι.

I still take this as a dative of reference.

μακάριοι οἱ πτωχοί - blessed are the poor. Which poor?

οἱ πτωχοὶ τῷ πνεύματι - those who are poor in the spirit, who are spiritually destitute, those who are in need of grace, who come to God as humble beggars.
Wouldn't the presense of a definite article suggest *the* holy pneuma rather than in their own pneuma?
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Mark Lightman
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Re: Matthew 5:3a

Post by Mark Lightman » June 4th, 2011, 6:12 pm

Lee wrote: So if you want to be consistent, and if you want τῷ πνεύματι to modify μακάριοι, you also will need τῇ καρδίᾳ to modify μακάριοι in verse 8--"Blessed in heart are the pure."
Excellent point, Lee, and for what it is worth Nyland renders v. 8a "Happy are those with purified minds."

Like Oun, I still have respect for Nyland, even though I think she is probably wrong here. I did do a search of the archives and found that she posted a few times on B-Greek several years ago. If she is still a member it would be nice to hear from her.

I did not find any other translations that follow her lead. I always like to see what the Modern Greek versions do:

ABS: μακάριοι εἶναι οἱ ταπεινόφρονες
TGV μακάριοι όσοι νιώθουν τον εαυτό τους φτωχό μπροστά στο Θεό.
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Matthew 5:3a

Post by Jonathan Robie » June 4th, 2011, 6:30 pm

Bill Ross wrote:Wouldn't the presense of a definite article suggest *the* holy pneuma rather than in their own pneuma?
Not necessarily - consider τῇ καρδίᾳ in verse 8 (thanks, Lee!). It doesn't refer to the Holy Heart, it refers to the heart of a person who is pure in heart.

In the same way, I think τῷ πνεύματι refers to the spirit of a person who is poor in spirit.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

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