Acts 13:48 - Subordinate Clause

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Acts 13:48 - Subordinate Clause

Postby rhutchin » January 7th, 2013, 8:48 am

Acts 13:48 includes this:

και ἐπιστευσαν ὁσοι ἡσαν τεταγμενοι εἰσζην αἰωνιον

Someone explained this verse thusly, "οσοι (all who, a subgroup of a previously identified main group) introduces a subordinate clause, but "believed" is in the main clause. In the subordinate clause (including οσοι) there is only "all who had been appointed to eternal life". The conditions stated in a subordinate clause depend on those in the main clause for their existence. Putting it simply, "believed" results (directly or indirectly) in "appointed". "

I objected saying, " 'Believed' is not the cause of someone being appointed; it is a quality (or status) obtained by those described as "appointed." Those people who had been appointed believed."

The person responded,"If the circumstances were as you describe, the author would not have used a subordinate clause - he would have used a genitive clause: it would include a γαρ or at least begin with a και or some similar particle. I won't ask you to believe me when I say that the conditions of a subordinate clause are subject to the conditions of its main clause."

Is this person correct in his analysis?
Roger Hutchinson
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Re: Acts 13:48 - Subordinate Clause

Postby Mark Lightman » January 7th, 2013, 2:19 pm

καὶ ἐπίστευσαν ὅσοι ἦσαν τεταγμένοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον:

Someone explained this verse thusly...putting it simply, "believed" results (directly or indirectly) in "appointed". "


καὶ ἐπίστευσαν. ἦσαν οὖν τεταγμένοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

I objected saying, " 'Believed' is not the cause of someone being appointed; it is a quality (or status) obtained by those described as "appointed." Those people who had been appointed believed."


καὶ ἐπίστευσαν. ἦσαν γὰρ τεταγμένοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

Is this person correct in his analysis?


οὐ.
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Re: Acts 13:48 - Subordinate Clause

Postby Paul-Nitz » January 7th, 2013, 4:17 pm

Διδασκαλε Μαρκε και οἱ ἄλλοι διδάσκαλοι,

τί δ̍ ἐστιν ερωτημα; ου συνηκα καλως.

    Τίνες επιστευσαν;
    τα εθνη.
    τί εποίουν τα εθνη εν εκεινῳ τῳ χρονῳ;
    ἤκουον.
    ποσοι ανθρωποι επιστευσαν;
    οσοι ησαν τετραγμενοι εις ζωην αιωνιον.

δειξον μοι, παρακαλῶ, το ερωτημα περι του ρῆματος τούτου.
οὐ ρᾳδιος;
ποσοι ανθρωποι επιστευσαν;
οι ησαν τετραγμενοι, ἤ οὐ;


What is the question? I don't understand well.
Who believed?
The εθνα
What were they doing at that time?
Hearing.
How many people believed?
As many as were τετραγμενοι.
Show me, please, the question concerning this text.
Isn't it easy?
How many believed?
Those who had been appointed, nicht so?
Paul D. Nitz - Lilongwe Malawi
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Re: Acts 13:48 - Subordinate Clause

Postby Mark Lightman » January 7th, 2013, 4:46 pm

Paul Nitz: τί δ̍ ἐστιν ερωτημα;


χαῖρε φίλε!

λέγοι δὴ John Calvin "ἐπίστευσαν διότι ἦσαν τεταγμένοι." ἄλλοι λέγουσι "ἦσαν τεταγμένοι διότι ἐπίστευσαν." φήμι δὴ τῳ Calvin.

nicht so?


πάνυ γε.

ἔρρωσο!
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Re: Acts 13:48 - Subordinate Clause

Postby Stephen Carlson » January 7th, 2013, 5:15 pm

I don't see any causation in the sentence, in either direction. This is a famous proof-text in the Calvinist-Arminian debate and trying to see how causation fits into it seems to me to be going beyond the meaning of the Greek text and into the realm of systematic theology. Let's keep the focus on the Greek or this thread may have to be locked.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D. (Duke, New Testament)
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Re: Acts 13:48 - Subordinate Clause

Postby Alan Patterson » January 8th, 2013, 7:31 am

Roger,

I would take issue with a reply or two regarding this verse. There still is a tendency for Greek teachers/students to see this construct and think, Ah ha, a passive verbal.

Note the Middle Voice here:

και ἐπιστευσαν ὁσοι ἡσαν τεταγμενοι εἰσζην αἰωνιον

There are better English words and phrases to capture the sense of ἡσαν τεταγμενοι than appointed. One wooden translation is: They put/arranged/positioned themselves into an orderly formation. This I believe captures the initial sense of ἡσαν τεταγμενοι. Those who positioned themselves, with reference to eternal life, believed. But, theology precedes translation and interpretation, so the debate will continue on another 2,000 years.
χαρις υμιν και ειρηνη,
Alan Patterson
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Re: Acts 13:48 - Subordinate Clause

Postby rhutchin » January 8th, 2013, 9:10 am

Alan Patterson wrote:Note the Middle Voice here:

και ἐπιστευσαν ὁσοι ἡσαν τεταγμενοι εἰσζην αἰωνιον

There are better English words and phrases to capture the sense of ἡσαν τεταγμενοι than appointed. One wooden translation is: They put/arranged/positioned themselves into an orderly formation. This I believe captures the initial sense of ἡσαν τεταγμενοι. Those who positioned themselves, with reference to eternal life, believed. But, theology precedes translation and interpretation, so the debate will continue on another 2,000 years.


So, by the middle voice, Paul draws a contrast between the Jews (v46) who had positioned themselves against eternal life and the gentiles who had positioned themselves favorably toward eternal life.

So, why isn't the middle voice explained when people come to this verse (and thereby avoid a lot of stuff)? What has happened to negate the sense of the middle voice?
Roger Hutchinson
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Re: Acts 13:48 - Subordinate Clause

Postby Peter Streitenberger » January 8th, 2013, 9:13 am

Dear Friends,
ἐπίστευσαν belongs to the main clause and is the predicate, followed by a subordinate clause that describes the already beliving gentiles as such being appointed to eternal life. I'd say, that belive is forfronted and the appointment is the result of it. Right ?
Yours
Peter, Germany
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Re: Acts 13:48 - Subordinate Clause

Postby Stephen Carlson » January 8th, 2013, 11:45 am

Well, I can't tell just by looking at it whether ἡσαν τεταγμενοι is a passive or middle. The middle-passive form means that the subject was affected (i.e. was the patient or theme of this verb) but it does not say anything about the agent. Here again, I fear the temptation is too great to go beyond the Greek and read one's theology into the text.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D. (Duke, New Testament)
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Re: Acts 13:48 - Subordinate Clause

Postby rhutchin » January 8th, 2013, 2:23 pm

Stephen Carlson wrote:Well, I can't tell just by looking at it whether ἡσαν τεταγμενοι is a passive or middle. The middle-passive form means that the subject was affected (i.e. was the patient or theme of this verb) but it does not say anything about the agent. Here again, I fear the temptation is too great to go beyond the Greek and read one's theology into the text.


Friberg's Analytic Greek NT identifies it as passive and not middle. That might explain open season on exegesis.
Roger Hutchinson
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