Modern Greek verses Koine Greek John 1:1

How do I work out the meaning of a Greek text? How can I best understand the forms and vocabulary in this particular text?
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Re: Modern Greek verses Koine Greek John 1:1

Postby Scott Lawson » March 9th, 2013, 6:47 pm

Dean_Poulos wrote: I mentioned it is not only John 1.1. I used 1 Cor 13.1 as an example, however, here is a much more critical one and I think a pattern will become clear.

John 10:30

ἐγὼ καὶ ὁ πατὴρ ἕν ἐσμεν.

The Father and I are one.

I’m now out of my comfort zone, being a beginner grammatically with respect to Koine, so I’ll be asking:

With ἐσμεν being (I think) the FPP indicative, I am now guessing it could be rendered: The Father and I are one essence. Yes? No?

If so, then does “the Word was with God” have the same force??? (aspect???) as I read I John 10:30?

By that I am trying to say that simply reading the words come through to me as one essence, not two persons, not in John 1.1.


Dean what I see is that ἐγὼ presents a contrast with ὁ πατὴρ making each person distinct and ἐσμεν is in accord with this same contrast it being a plural verb - indicating more than one. ἕν then indicates the unity of the two parties. That ἕν is nueter indicates to me that the unity is not in person (which might be expressed by the masculine) but in some abstract way. So I would find your translation "The Father and I are one essence." to be within the scope of acceptable translation. However, I'm not sure what exactly it means to be of one essence and John 17:11 and 21-23 are grammatically identical which could also mean that Jesus is presenting his desire for his apostles to be of one essence with him and his father. I find it more sensible to see ἕν in those verses to mean one in purpose and will also admit that the same thought could equally apply to the ἕν of John 10:30. In sum, I feel that the dichotomy of Jesus and his father exists in the text and is rightly brought out in translation and that the NWT faithfully reflects the distinctiveness of Jesus and his father.

Dean_Poulos wrote:είμαι μαζί τήν γυναίκα μοῦ (I am with my wife) to a Greek instinctively implies the oneness of the marriage bond.


I note that μαζί can have a vulgar connotation. Is this what you are gently implying?

Dean_Poulos wrote:If by pleonastic you mean a redundant, tautology, e.g., burning fire, and not an idiomatic tautology, I would agree. If not, you're way over my head at this point.


I do not necessarily see every pleonasm as a mere redunancy but it may reflect a more complete description on a particular subject.

Thank you, Dean, for your enlightening comments.
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Re: Modern Greek verses Koine Greek John 1:1

Postby Dean_Poulos » March 9th, 2013, 9:37 pm

Scott,

As I said, I was out of my comfort zone and ended up learning something. (thanks!) I also used a poor example.

The NWT of Titus 2.13 …..blessed hope and glorious “φανερόση τοῦ μεγάλου θεού καί τοῦ Σωτήρα μάς τοῦ Ἰησοῦ χριστοῦ,”

Byzantine: “ἐπιφάνειαν τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου [θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος] ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ χριστοῦ,”

Modern is properly rendered after (blessed hope and glorious) as “manifestation of our great God and [our] savior Jesus Christ.”

That should have been the split I referred to, rather than the distinct personhood in John. Two singular, common nouns and the KAI, same referent, NWT splits that very clearly.

Thus, on the matter of a modern version online; such a version continues to elude me. Yes, I am saying that if one verse so distinctly attacks the deity of Christ, clearly established IMHO throughout the NT, it renders the entire translation very poor at best and inappropriate if one does wish to read scripture in Modern Greek. (I'm not sure of I even gave an opinion on that, so for what it's worth, I do not think it's a good idea, but that is only one person's opinion. Well, more than one, but no one to quote.

“I note that μαζί can have a vulgar connotation. Is this what you are gently implying?”

No, not really. Vulgarity may be used by anyone, not only what some [not I, nor you] may imply a blog or facebook page may be. Certainly saying “together with my kids,” as the blog does is not vulgar in a common or formal sense.

I believe it is inappropriate to convey and stay true to the original meaning despite my initial mix-up of distinct personhood.

I also maintain (believe me on this one) είμαι μαζί [με] τήν γυναίκα μοῦ would result in no dinner. Perhaps my wife is too formal or too easily insulted, however I do not cook. :oops:

“Thank you, Dean, for your enlightening comments.”

Thank you for your help and patience Scott.
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Re: Modern Greek verses Koine Greek John 1:1

Postby James Wheeler » July 14th, 2013, 12:06 am

Hi friends

This link may answer your query about an online demotic version: https://www.youversion.com/bible/173/jhn.1.tgv

Απ’ όλα πριν υπήρχε ο Λόγος κι ο Λόγος ήτανε με τον Θεό, κι ήταν Θεός ο Λόγος.

I believe this TGV YouVersion version is the 1997 translation by the Hellenic Bible Society http://hellenicbiblesociety.gr/?page_id=1241&lang=en

Kind regards, J
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Re: Modern Greek verses Koine Greek John 1:1

Postby Scott Lawson » July 14th, 2013, 3:23 pm

James Wheeler wrote:This link may answer your query about an online demotic version: https://www.youversion.com/bible/173/jhn.1.tgv


ἐυχαριστῶ σοι!
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Re: Modern Greek verses Koine Greek John 1:1

Postby Stephen Hughes » February 1st, 2015, 11:28 am

I realise that replying now is stretching the envelope of the asynchronicity to which the forum is used to, but never-the-less the contribution will in hindsight been seen in its local rather than temporal context.

The TGV reads as flowing and readable Modern Greek, on a English version scale-system, it would be near the Good News end of the scale - it is at times a little interpretive, treating Modern Greek as a separate language:
1Απ’ όλα πριν υπήρχε ο Λόγος (υπήρχε = ὑπάρχειν is common enough in Classical Greek, and in Modern to mean "be" in the sense of "exist")
κι ο Λόγος ήτανε με τον Θεό, (ήτανε and var. ήταν is used for both the third person singular and plural)
κι ήταν Θεός ο Λόγος.
2Απ’ την αρχή ήταν αυτός με τον Θεό. (με +acc (= μετά +gen) is unstrained and easy on the ear)
3Τα πάντα δι’ αυτού δημιουργήθηκαν (δημιουργήθηκαν is an interpretative rendering)
κι απ’ όσα έγιναν (έγιναν is a standard way of saying this in Modern Greek, cf. the note below)
τίποτα χωρίς αυτόν δεν έγινε. (τίποτα - word order is used for emphasis)
4Αυτός ήτανε η ζωή, (Αυτός is translated interpretatively)
και ήταν η ζωή αυτή το φως για τους ανθρώπους.
5Το φως αυτό έλαμψε μέσα στου κόσμου το σκοτάδι,
μα το σκοτάδι δεν το δέχτηκε.


________________

In regards to the parts of the NWT that follow the actual first verse under consideration, the recurrent ήρθαν σε ύπαρξη (= ἦλθον εἰς ὕπαρξιν for ἐγένετο) of the NWT-Greek appears to be a word-for-word translation of the English "came into existence".
Stephen Hughes
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself."
(Attr. to Einstein)
τῶν δ᾽ εἴ τί σοι ψελλόν τε καὶ δυσεύρετον,
ἐπανδίπλαζε καὶ σαφῶς ἐκμάνθανε: (Aesch. P.V. 816-7)
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Re: Modern Greek verses Koine Greek John 1:1

Postby Scott Lawson » February 1st, 2015, 11:51 am

Ha! Stephen! It's okay with me that you necropost! I always welcome your insights! I do believe that the translations of the NWT are indeed based on the English version.

Thanks!
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Re: Modern Greek verses Koine Greek John 1:1

Postby Stephen Hughes » February 1st, 2015, 12:42 pm

Scott Lawson wrote:It's okay with me that you necropost!

:shock: What a word! :)

Scott Lawson wrote:I do believe that the translations of the NWT are indeed based on the English version.

Verse 3 "ούτε ένα πράγμα" (NWT-Greek) is probably in the same boat. It possibly comes from "not even one thing" (NWT), which is formal sounding in English. The "thing" was added in English to make the meaning clear, then back translated into Modern Greek, that sounds both strong and perhaps a bit colloquial, but it is understandable at least.

The Koine οὐδὲ ἓν is sufficiently close, but (putting my fingers on the door jamb and hoping a gust of wind doesn't come up) I think that is strong, but not necessarily informal (cf. Mt 27:14, Jn 3:27 (NA), Acts 4:32, Rom 3:10, 1 Cor 6:5 (Byz)), the most telling thing though of course is that verse three has the same verb three times in the Koine Greek, twice in the NWT and twice in the NWT-Greek too - ὃ γέγονεν is not rendered. I think it could be valid to take ὃ γέγονεν as an emphasis and use an appropriate way of emphasising in English other than that way.

The TVG renders ὃ γέγονεν more idiomatically as κι απ’ όσα έγιναν "and out of all the things that came into existence", which precedes it.
Stephen Hughes
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself."
(Attr. to Einstein)
τῶν δ᾽ εἴ τί σοι ψελλόν τε καὶ δυσεύρετον,
ἐπανδίπλαζε καὶ σαφῶς ἐκμάνθανε: (Aesch. P.V. 816-7)
Stephen Hughes
 
Posts: 1867
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

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