ζῳοποιηθήσονται in 1Corinthians 15

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Stephen Carlson
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Re: ζῳοποιηθήσονται in 1Corinthians 15

Post by Stephen Carlson » April 22nd, 2013, 1:38 pm

Larry Wise wrote:Why should Paul include Christ in a group that “shall be” zOopoieO?
But does he? Is Christ included in this clause: οὕτως καὶ ἐν τῷ Χριστῷ πάντες ζῳοποιηθήσονται? Is Christ to made alive in himself?
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Larry Wise
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Re: ζῳοποιηθήσονται in 1Corinthians 15

Post by Larry Wise » April 23rd, 2013, 1:53 am

Larry Wise wrote:
Why should Paul include Christ in a group that “shall be” zOopoieO?
Stephen Carlson wrote: But does he? Is Christ included in this clause: οὕτως καὶ ἐν τῷ Χριστῷ πάντες ζῳοποιηθήσονται?
Hello Stephen,

A nice two-edged question. Yes, the word Χριστῷ is right there in the clause, plain as day. Does this usage of Χριστῷ reflect directly to the person of Christ Jesus? – is probably more accurately what the question in my mind is. [/quote]

I think my question has to do with whether Christ himself is included among the πάντες. As he participates elsewhere in the clause (there\s no other way I can understand ἐν τῷ Χριστῷ, I tend to doubt. All doesn't really mean everyone in the whole universe but rather all of the relevant group, which can be contextually supplied. (A possible candidate is the later specified/clarified οἱ τοῦ Χριστοῦ.)
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Re: ζῳοποιηθήσονται in 1Corinthians 15

Post by Scott Lawson » April 23rd, 2013, 5:53 pm

Larry Wise wrote: Why would Paul not just continue in the genitive and use παρουσίας – something like this; “ἔπειτα οἱ τοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐν τῆς παρουσίας”?
Larry, certain prepositions are used with only one case. The preposition ἐν is only used with the dative case in NT Greek. Others are used with more than one case and their meanings are case affected.
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Re: ζῳοποιηθήσονται in 1Corinthians 15

Post by Scott Lawson » April 23rd, 2013, 6:26 pm

Larry Wise wrote: Why would it be inappropriate to let both ἀπαρχὴ and Χριστός stand as nouns, separate and distinct from one another?
BDAG says of ἀπαρχὴ at 1 Cor 15:20,23: The orig. mng. is greatly weakened so that ἀπαρχὴ becomes almost = πρῶτος; of Christ the first of those who have fallen asleep..."
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Re: ζῳοποιηθήσονται in 1Corinthians 15

Post by Scott Lawson » April 23rd, 2013, 7:15 pm

Larry Wise wrote: Christ, who already possesses life,
Larry more than just possessing life verse 45 describes Jesus as πνεῦμα ζῳοποιοῦν ( a life-giving spirit).
Larry Wise wrote:
Christ (Jesus) is not zOopoieO in Himself.
Larry, I'm not sure what you mean by this.
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Re: ζῳοποιηθήσονται in 1Corinthians 15

Post by Larry Wise » April 23rd, 2013, 10:46 pm

This is submitted to replace my errant posting on April 23, 2013, 1:53 am.
Larry Wise wrote:Why should Paul include Christ in a group that “shall be” zOopoieO?
Stephen Carlson wrote: But does he? Is Christ included in this clause: οὕτως καὶ ἐν τῷ Χριστῷ πάντες ζῳοποιηθήσονται?
Hello Stephen,

A nice two-edged question. Yes, the word Χριστῷ is right there in the clause, plain as day. Does this usage of Χριστῷ reflect directly to the person of Christ Jesus? – this probably is more accurately the question in my mind.

That Χριστῷ does point to the person of Jesus Christ directly is the question. More plausible, the “ἀπαρχὴ” is the first τάγμα “in Christ” to emerge, the next τάγμα to emerge are those “in Christ” ἐν τῇ παρουσίᾳ αὐτοῦ. The ζῳοποιηθήσονται seems to be linking/acting toward “ἐν τῷ Χριστω” in verse 22 and leading to the “in Christ” τάγμα in verse 23. Verse 23 gives two τάγμα.
Stephen Carlson wrote:Is Christ to made alive in himself?
Seems like a simple enough question, but I can’t wrap my head around it. Clarification would be appreciated. Is this question to examine the quality of zOopoieO given to the “in Christ” τάγμα participants?
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Re: ζῳοποιηθήσονται in 1Corinthians 15

Post by Larry Wise » April 23rd, 2013, 11:22 pm

Larry Wise wrote: Why would Paul not just continue in the genitive and use παρουσίας – something like this; “ἔπειτα οἱ τοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐν τῆς παρουσίας”?
Scott Lawson wrote:Larry, certain prepositions are used with only one case. The preposition ἐν is only used with the dative case in NT Greek. Others are used with more than one case and their meanings are case affected.
Hi Scott, Thank you for the correction. Hopefully the thrust of the clarification I am seeking is not lost on this detail.
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Re: ζῳοποιηθήσονται in 1Corinthians 15

Post by Larry Wise » April 23rd, 2013, 11:26 pm

Scott Lawson wrote:
Larry Wise wrote: Why would it be inappropriate to let both ἀπαρχὴ and Χριστός stand as nouns, separate and distinct from one another?
BDAG says of ἀπαρχὴ at 1 Cor 15:20,23: The orig. mng. is greatly weakened so that ἀπαρχὴ becomes almost = πρῶτος; of Christ the first of those who have fallen asleep..."
Scott,
Interesting! Does this “weakening” of ἀπαρχὴ to “almost” πρῶτος also occur in other new testament locations? Such as: Ro 8:23, 11:16, 16:5; 1C 16:15; 2Th 2:13; Jam 1:18; Re 14:4. Does BDAG delve into the use of ζῳοποιηθήσονται (future tense) at 1 Corinthians 15:22 in light that Jesus Christ was presumed zOopoieO before the writing of 1 Corinthians?

This approach would resolve my noun-noun question by basically changing to an adjective-noun sequence.
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Re: ζῳοποιηθήσονται in 1Corinthians 15

Post by Larry Wise » April 23rd, 2013, 11:33 pm

Larry Wise wrote: Christ, who already possesses life,
Scott Lawson wrote: Larry more than just possessing life verse 45 describes Jesus as πνεῦμα ζῳοποιοῦν (a life-giving spirit).
Scott,

Agreed. My thinking is that He was zOopoieO well before 1 Corinthians 15:22-23. He is πνεῦμα ζῳοποιοῦν (a life-giving spirit) even at verses 22-23, so why shall He be ζῳοποιηθήσονται?
Larry Wise wrote: Christ (Jesus) is not zOopoieO in Himself.
Scott Lawson wrote: Larry, I'm not sure what you mean by this.
In verse 22 Paul compares those “in the Adam” with those “in the Christ” and when those “in Christ” shall be ζῳοποιηθήσονται. Jesus Christ is not one of those “in Christ”, He is the Christ. He is not zOopoieO in Himself as those “in Christ” shall be. This would tend to eliminate Him from the τάγματι: “ἀπαρχὴ Χριστός”.
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Re: ζῳοποιηθήσονται in 1Corinthians 15

Post by Scott Lawson » April 29th, 2013, 12:11 am

Larry Wise wrote:
Larry Wise wrote:
Why should Paul include Christ in a group that “shall be” zOopoieO?
Stephen Carlson wrote: But does he? Is Christ included in this clause: οὕτως καὶ ἐν τῷ Χριστῷ πάντες ζῳοποιηθήσονται?
Larry Wise wrote:Hello Stephen,

A nice two-edged question. Yes, the word Χριστῷ is right there in the clause, plain as day. Does this usage of Χριστῷ reflect directly to the person of Christ Jesus? – is probably more accurately what the question in my mind is.
I think my question has to do with whether Christ himself is included among the πάντες. As he participates elsewhere in the clause (there\s no other way I can understand ἐν τῷ Χριστῷ, I tend to doubt. All doesn't really mean everyone in the whole universe but rather all of the relevant group, which can be contextually supplied. (A possible candidate is the later specified/clarified οἱ τοῦ Χριστοῦ.)
Larry, the way I understand it, the simple subject of the clause in question is the they of ζῳοποιηθήσονται (they will be made alive) and the simple predicate is the assertion of the finite verb (they will be made alive). The complete subject of the clause includes the prepositional phrase ἐν τῷ Χριστῷ πάντες. So, the prepositional phrase ἐν τῷ Χριστῷ excludes Christ from ζῳοποιηθήσονται as you have already concluded since Christ is not the subject of the clause but rather those who are ἐν τῷ Χριστῷ (in Christ) are:
Larry Wise wrote:Why should Paul include Christ in a group that “shall be” zOopoieO? This make little sense to me. Christ is clearly identified as ἐγήγερται in I Corinthians 15:20. He (Christ) is also identified as ἐκ νεκρῶν ἀπαρχὴ τῶν κεκοιμημένων. He is “raised” and He is “first fruit of those that are sleeping”.
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