John 15:16

How do I work out the meaning of a Greek text? How can I best understand the forms and vocabulary in this particular text?
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Mike Burke Deactivated
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αἰτήσητε

Post by Mike Burke Deactivated » April 18th, 2013, 1:12 am

What does αἰτήσητε mean?

I'm interested in how this word is used in John 15:16.

Jesus says "I appointed you that ye (plural?) should bear fruit, and that your (plural?) fruit should remain, so that whatsoever ye (plural?) should ask the Father in My name He should give it to you (plural?).
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Mike Burke Deactivated
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John 15:16

Post by Mike Burke Deactivated » April 18th, 2013, 1:26 am

I'm interested in John 15:16.

Jesus says "I appointed you that ye (plural?) should bear fruit, and that your (plural?) fruit should remain, so that whatsoever ye (plural?) should ask the Father in My name He should give it to you (plural?).

Is He talking about what they ask individually or collectively?
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: John 15:16

Post by Jonathan Robie » April 18th, 2013, 8:43 am

Forum rules
.... Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up.
Please quote the text and ask questions about the Greek text and not some translation.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Mike Burke Deactivated
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Re: John 15:16

Post by Mike Burke Deactivated » April 18th, 2013, 10:52 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:
Forum rules
.... Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up.
Please quote the text and ask questions about the Greek text and not some translation.
οὐχ ὑμεῖς με ἐξελέξασθε , ἀλλ' ἐγὼ ἐξελεξάμην ὑμᾶς , καὶ ἔθηκα ὑμᾶς , ἵνα ὑμεῖς ὑπάγητε καὶ καρπὸν φέρητε , καὶ ὁ καρπὸς ὑμῶν μένῃ ; ἵνα ὅτι ἂν αἰτήσητε τὸν πατέρα ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί μου , δῷ ὑμῖν .


So is Jesus speaking to the disciples individually, or as a group?

Is He talking about what they ask individually or collectively?

Would the following be a good translation?

"I appointed you that ye (plural?) should bear fruit, and that your (plural?) fruit should remain, so that whatsoever ye (plural?) should ask the Father in My name He should give it to you (plural?)"?
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cwconrad
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Re: John 15:16

Post by cwconrad » April 18th, 2013, 1:52 pm

Mike Burke wrote:
οὐχ ὑμεῖς με ἐξελέξασθε , ἀλλ' ἐγὼ ἐξελεξάμην ὑμᾶς , καὶ ἔθηκα ὑμᾶς , ἵνα ὑμεῖς ὑπάγητε καὶ καρπὸν φέρητε , καὶ ὁ καρπὸς ὑμῶν μένῃ ; ἵνα ὅτι ἂν αἰτήσητε τὸν πατέρα ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί μου , δῷ ὑμῖν .

So is Jesus speaking to the disciples individually, or as a group?

Is He talking about what they ask individually or collectively?
To both these questions I'd respond: What reason is there to suppose that Jesus is NOT addressing the group and talking about what they are asking collectively? Do you find a ἕκαστος (ὑμὦν) there or something that seems to imply it?
Mike Burke wrote:
Would the following be a good translation?

"I appointed you that ye (plural?) should bear fruit, and that your (plural?) fruit should remain, so that whatsoever ye (plural?) should ask the Father in My name He should give it to you (plural?)"?
It might have been a better translation in the 17th century than it is today.
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Iver Larsen
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Re: John 15:16

Post by Iver Larsen » April 19th, 2013, 4:52 am

Mike Burke wrote:
οὐχ ὑμεῖς με ἐξελέξασθε, ἀλλ' ἐγὼ ἐξελεξάμην ὑμᾶς καὶ ἔθηκα ὑμᾶς ἵνα ὑμεῖς ὑπάγητε καὶ καρπὸν φέρητε, καὶ ὁ καρπὸς ὑμῶν μένῃ, ἵνα ὅ τι ἂν αἰτήσητε τὸν πατέρα ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί μου, δῷ ὑμῖν.


So is Jesus speaking to the disciples individually, or as a group?

Is He talking about what they ask individually or collectively?

Would the following be a good translation?

"I appointed you that ye (plural?) should bear fruit, and that your (plural?) fruit should remain, so that whatsoever ye (plural?) should ask the Father in My name He should give it to you (plural?)"?
He is talking to them as a group in this chapter. There are 26 second person plural verbs in the chapter and not a single 2nd person singular. But that does not mean that all actions expected by the disciples have to be done together or in unison.

Translations in modern English will have to use the ambiguous "you" and context will indicate that a plural is meant. For other languages which have different words for you-singular and you-plural, then the you-plural would be used, and it is up to the reader to apply and interpret the text.

The verb for bearing fruit is also plural, but it refers to each individual bearing fruit which is indicated by the singular third person in v. 5.
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