The Son of Him

How do I work out the meaning of a Greek text? How can I best understand the forms and vocabulary in this particular text?
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John Brainard
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Joined: September 18th, 2011, 5:17 pm

The Son of Him

Post by John Brainard »

in 1 John 1:7 we read

ἐὰν δὲ ἐν τῷ φωτὶ περιπατῶμεν, ὡς αὐτός ἐστιν ἐν τῷ φωτί, κοινωνίαν ἔχομεν μετ' ἀλλήλων καὶ τὸ αἷμα Ἰησοῦ τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ καθαρίζει ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ πάσης ἁμαρτίας

Most translations say "the Son of Him" why didn't John write τὸ αἷμα τοῦ Ἰησοῦ ?

Is there a special significance given to "υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ"?

Also, "Is there a special significance for the use of the article τοῦ? Is it necessary to use the article with the personal possessive pronoun τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ?

John
Jonathan Boyd
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Joined: March 14th, 2013, 7:40 am

Re: The Son of Him

Post by Jonathan Boyd »

John,

I did a quick search on υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ in the GNT and the LXX and it occurs 43 times according to Bibleworks. Of those occurrences, five don't have the article (2 Ch 35:4; Neh 12:45; Bar 1:11, 12; 2:3) whereas the other 38 do. This would indicate to me that we shouldn't place any exegetical weight on the use of the article, since it seems to be almost a standard usage.

Most translations say "the Son of Him" why didn't John write τὸ αἷμα τοῦ Ἰησοῦ ?
None of the translations I normally check translates it as "the Son of Him," so I'm not sure what you mean by that. Also, I think it's difficult to answer the question about why an author didn't write something. There are a myriad of possibilities about how things may be said, so it may be better to ask what John means by his usage in the text.

Jonathan
Jonathan Boyd
ABWE missionary - Colombia
Barry Hofstetter
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Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: The Son of Him

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

I would be leary of any syntactic information derived from the LXX, as one cannot always be sure if we are reading something idiomatic or if it is translationese. However, the article with a dependent noun and a possessor is normal syntax in Greek, i.e., ὁ ἵππός μου, "my horse," ὁ υἱὸς αὐτοῦ, "his son." Why? Simply because a possessive normally particularizes the dependent noun, so Greek likes to have the article. If the article were lacking, that would raise a question...
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
cwconrad
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Re: The Son of Him

Post by cwconrad »

As Barry has noted, the construction of τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ is standard idiomatic Greek; in fact, it is so common that most students who learn Greek in a classroom have encountered it repeatedly well before they've finished one semester's work. And as Jonathan Boyd has noted, it is not true that "most translations say 'Son of Him"; it's the interlinear versions that do that, and it's quite evident that you are equating interlinear versions with "real" translations that convert the Greek text into grammatical English. How many years have you been "learning" Greek without getting past this level of competence? If you are (were?) serious, it's time to start learning Greek as a language with its own structures and idioms rather than as a curious sort of coded English. If you're not serious, you don't belong in this forum.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
John Brainard
Posts: 72
Joined: September 18th, 2011, 5:17 pm

Re: The Son of Him

Post by John Brainard »

cwconrad wrote:As Barry has noted, the construction of τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ is standard idiomatic Greek; in fact, it is so common that most students who learn Greek in a classroom have encountered it repeatedly well before they've finished one semester's work. And as Jonathan Boyd has noted, it is not true that "most translations say 'Son of Him"; it's the interlinear versions that do that, and it's quite evident that you are equating interlinear versions with "real" translations that convert the Greek text into grammatical English. How many years have you been "learning" Greek without getting past this level of competence? If you are (were?) serious, it's time to start learning Greek as a language with its own structures and idioms rather than as a curious sort of coded English. If you're not serious, you don't belong in this forum.
I have read your post and to be honest I am concerned as to why you do not like me and yes that is the sense that I get from your interaction with me. I have never done anything to you nor have I been disrespectful and I do not intend to ever be that way.

The question I posed came directly from "A First John Greek Reader" by S.M.Baugh. I wonder if you would have responded this way to him. Can you tell me what it is that bothers you so?

I am actually studying Nouns modified by Genitive pronouns.

I will not bother you or the people here any more since you feel that I do not belong here.

I have many good discussions with Ray Goldsmith who is a good friend of mine. I often asked questions such as these not because I do not know the answer but because I want to hear more on the subject.

Thank you for your time and I wish you the best.

John Brainard
cwconrad
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Re: The Son of Him

Post by cwconrad »

If you had worked through a primer systematically, you would have had no trouble with this very common construction -- there is nothing exceptional about it. Your comment about the translations indicated that you were looking at one or more interlinear versions rather than real translations. We have a policy, "B-Greek does require Greek" (viewtopic.php?f=38&t=11&sid=3964a348c5f ... 4e3052#p13). My observation of what you've posted in this forum has led me to think that you are more interested in exploring Biblical doctrine than in learning the fundamentals of Biblical Greek.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
John Brainard
Posts: 72
Joined: September 18th, 2011, 5:17 pm

Re: The Son of Him

Post by John Brainard »

cwconrad wrote:If you had worked through a primer systematically, you would have had no trouble with this very common construction -- there is nothing exceptional about it. Your comment about the translations indicated that you were looking at one or more interlinear versions rather than real translations. We have a policy, "B-Greek does require Greek" (viewtopic.php?f=38&t=11&sid=3964a348c5f ... 4e3052#p13). My observation of what you've posted in this forum has led me to think that you are more interested in exploring Biblical doctrine than in learning the fundamentals of Biblical Greek.
that is not true.

I can read through most of the New Testament with a proper pronunciation of the words. I am studying the Grammar. My Library also would indicate something other than your conclusion. I have one advanced theology set and the rest of my Library is Greek Grammar and study tools. You have misunderstood me an I am sorry this has happened. I have learned from experience over the years that once a mind set is in place there is not much one can do to change it.

I will go in peace and please remove me from your forum as I am no longer interested in participation here.

I have seen people here translating neuter relative pronouns as as definite articles and you have not once spoke to them about their inadequacy. I believe something else is going on. I doubt that your attitude towards me will change. I thought I would escape the John Milton's over at CARM by joining a more professional platform. I was sadly mistaken.

Thanks for your time

John
Stephen Carlson
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Re: The Son of Him

Post by Stephen Carlson »

It looks like this thread has played itself out, so I'm locking it. Tangential issues, such as the use of the article with posessive pronouns, can always be started in another thread if there is interest.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
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