Eph.3.21

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Eiji Koyama
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Eph.3.21

Post by Eiji Koyama » April 25th, 2013, 9:09 pm

Eph. 3.21 αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα ἐν τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ καὶ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ εἰς πάσας τὰς γενεὰς τοῦ αἰῶνος τῶν αἰώνων· ἀμήν.

Is it possible to think "ἐν τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ" as instrumental and "ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ " as locative?
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George F Somsel
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Re: Eph.3.21

Post by George F Somsel » April 26th, 2013, 1:31 am

TEXT:
αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα ἐν τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ καὶ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ
Eiji Koyama wrote:
Is it possible to think "ἐν τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ" as instrumental and "ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ " as locative?
If anything I would reverse your suggestion so that ἐν τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ would be understood as locative and ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ as instrumental. What would it mean to have glory "in Jesus Christ" as a spacial concept?
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Eiji Koyama
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Re: Eph.3.21

Post by Eiji Koyama » April 26th, 2013, 2:08 am

Well, KJV takes ἐν τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ as locative and ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ as instrumental. Most commentators say if instrumental, both are instrumentals. However, I wonder Paul meant the other way around. Some scholars think when Paul uses the word in Christ, it means locative. I wonder any suggestion about this.
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cwconrad
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Re: Eph.3.21

Post by cwconrad » April 26th, 2013, 6:17 am

αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα ἐν τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ καὶ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ
A couple thoughts that may or may not have a bearing here:
(1) ἐν in NT Koine is far less specific semantically than in earlier Greek, perhaps simply pinpointing an item of reference than specifying location or instrument;
(2) in Pauline thought ἡ ἐκκλησία is the σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ.

and, for good measure, (3) ἐν Χριστῷ is a distinct Pauline expression, much discussed, one that everyone recognizes, one
that most will English as "in Christ" although they couldn't explain very well what they mean by "in" in that phrase.
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: Eph.3.21

Post by Stephen Carlson » April 26th, 2013, 6:40 am

I'm just curious how often is found an instrumental ἐν phrase with a possessive dative construction. It's not clear to me what it should mean.
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Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
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Eiji Koyama
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Re: Eph.3.21

Post by Eiji Koyama » April 26th, 2013, 8:03 pm

Thank you for some suggestions. Maybe, it is because unclear in NT Greek, it becomes theological issue.
What does "in Christ" mean will be theological question, not NT Greek?
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David Lim
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Re: Eph.3.21

Post by David Lim » April 27th, 2013, 12:49 am

Stephen Carlson wrote:I'm just curious how often is found an instrumental ἐν phrase with a possessive dative construction. It's not clear to me what it should mean.
Hello Stephen! I'm not sure what you are referring to by "a possessive dative construction" with regard to Eph 3:21, so could you explain?
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Eph.3.21

Post by Jonathan Robie » April 27th, 2013, 9:07 am

Eiji Koyama wrote:Thank you for some suggestions. Maybe, it is because unclear in NT Greek, it becomes theological issue.
What does "in Christ" mean will be theological question, not NT Greek?
Yeah, that's a tricky line, not just for you. Some of the phrases in the New Testament are loaded with theological meaning, and this is one of them. We do want to discuss what Greek phrases mean, taken in context, in the texts they occur in. And we discuss these texts precisely because they are meaningful to us, they aren't meaningless collections of linguistic artifacts.

But we want to avoid arguments based on theology, and use arguments based on linguistics, context, similar uses of the same phrase by the same author, etc. Beyond that, we want to listen carefully and sensitively to the text, and let that inform our theology, rather than insist that a text must mean what our theology allows it to mean, proof-texting, hitting each other over the head, etc.

Does that help?
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Eiji Koyama
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Re: Eph.3.21

Post by Eiji Koyama » April 28th, 2013, 10:27 pm

Thanks. It helps.

Since "ἐν Χριστῷ is a distinct Pauline expression", I just wondered that it possibly meant it is locative. It could mean anything as many thologian suggests.
Then, I thought that if "ἡ ἐκκλησία" is instumental. It is possible in NT Greek, isn't it?
However, "ἐν in NT Koine is far less specific semantically than in earlier Greek," so maybe I should not go deep in this matter, don't I?
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Eeli Kaikkonen
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Re: Eph.3.21

Post by Eeli Kaikkonen » April 29th, 2013, 1:22 am

Those who wonder what "in Christ" may mean theologically or lexically might be interested in http://www.amazon.com/Paul-Union-Christ ... 0310329051.
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