Eph.3.21

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Stephen Carlson
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Re: Eph.3.21

Post by Stephen Carlson » May 2nd, 2013, 5:20 am

David Lim wrote:
Stephen Carlson wrote:I'm just curious how often is found an instrumental ἐν phrase with a possessive dative construction. It's not clear to me what it should mean.
Hello Stephen! I'm not sure what you are referring to by "a possessive dative construction" with regard to Eph 3:21, so could you explain?
Based on past experience, answering these open-ended questions hasn't been very productive because I invariably address the wrong issue. So what's the issue you're having? You're not sure what a possessive dative is? You don't think that Eph 3:21 has a possessive dative? Something else?
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Re: Eph.3.21

Post by David Lim » May 2nd, 2013, 10:39 am

Stephen Carlson wrote:
David Lim wrote:
Stephen Carlson wrote:I'm just curious how often is found an instrumental ἐν phrase with a possessive dative construction. It's not clear to me what it should mean.
Hello Stephen! I'm not sure what you are referring to by "a possessive dative construction" with regard to Eph 3:21, so could you explain?
Based on past experience, answering these open-ended questions hasn't been very productive because I invariably address the wrong issue. So what's the issue you're having? You're not sure what a possessive dative is? You don't think that Eph 3:21 has a possessive dative? Something else?
I view both prepositional phrases in Eph 3:21 as locative, though not denoting physical location but merely something more vague. I would explain that the meaning of Eph 3:21 is as follows: May glory be accorded to him in the assembly and in what Christ Jesus did. So I don't think Eph 3:21 has a possessive dative construction. And I don't know which phrase you are referring to that could be taken as one.
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Re: Eph.3.21

Post by Stephen Carlson » May 2nd, 2013, 1:27 pm

David Lim wrote:I view both prepositional phrases in Eph 3:21 as locative, though not denoting physical location but merely something more vague. I would explain that the meaning of Eph 3:21 is as follows: May glory be accorded to him in the assembly and in what Christ Jesus did. So I don't think Eph 3:21 has a possessive dative construction. And I don't know which phrase you are referring to that could be taken as one.
For the possessive dative, I'm refering to the initial αὐτῳ.
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Re: Eph.3.21

Post by David Lim » May 3rd, 2013, 1:37 am

Stephen Carlson wrote:
David Lim wrote:I view both prepositional phrases in Eph 3:21 as locative, though not denoting physical location but merely something more vague. I would explain that the meaning of Eph 3:21 is as follows: May glory be accorded to him in the assembly and in what Christ Jesus did. So I don't think Eph 3:21 has a possessive dative construction. And I don't know which phrase you are referring to that could be taken as one.
For the possessive dative, I'm refering to the initial αὐτῳ.
Oh I see. Sorry I thought you were still referring to one of the phrases under discussion in the thread. Then I don't see anything wrong with it, but I took "αυτω ..." a bit more literally, as I have rendered Eph 3:21 above, which makes the possession implied or at least wished for rather than stated as a fact. I know this is not the original topic now, however do you think that Eph 3:21 actually meant something like: "Glory belongs to him ..." rather than how I interpreted it?
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Re: Eph.3.21

Post by cwconrad » May 3rd, 2013, 6:13 am

David Lim wrote:
Stephen Carlson wrote:For the possessive dative, I'm refering to the initial αὐτῳ.
Oh I see. Sorry I thought you were still referring to one of the phrases under discussion in the thread. Then I don't see anything wrong with it, but I took "αυτω ..." a bit more literally, as I have rendered Eph 3:21 above, which makes the possession implied or at least wished for rather than stated as a fact. I know this is not the original topic now, however do you think that Eph 3:21 actually meant something like: "Glory belongs to him ..." rather than how I interpreted it?
David, it seems like a mountain has been made of a molehill here; the dative used with an explicit or implicit form of the verb εἶνανι -- even if that form should be an imperative or subjunctive -- has been called "dative of possession" or "dative of the possessor" in traditional grammar for lo these many years, as some older English versions even indicate by use of the English genitive/possessive pronoun, "His be the glory ... "
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

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Re: Eph.3.21

Post by Stephen Carlson » May 3rd, 2013, 7:15 am

David Lim wrote:Oh I see. Sorry I thought you were still referring to one of the phrases under discussion in the thread. Then I don't see anything wrong with it, but I took "αυτω ..." a bit more literally, as I have rendered Eph 3:21 above, which makes the possession implied or at least wished for rather than stated as a fact. I know this is not the original topic now, however do you think that Eph 3:21 actually meant something like: "Glory belongs to him ..." rather than how I interpreted it?
I'm confused about where you're getting the idea that I think the mood should be indicative or "stated as a fact". While I would supply a form of εἶναι for the unexpressed verb, but for blessings such as this I'd favor the imperative ἔστω or perhaps a subjunctive.
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Re: Eph.3.21

Post by David Lim » May 4th, 2013, 5:05 am

Stephen Carlson wrote:
David Lim wrote:Oh I see. Sorry I thought you were still referring to one of the phrases under discussion in the thread. Then I don't see anything wrong with it, but I took "αυτω ..." a bit more literally, as I have rendered Eph 3:21 above, which makes the possession implied or at least wished for rather than stated as a fact. I know this is not the original topic now, however do you think that Eph 3:21 actually meant something like: "Glory belongs to him ..." rather than how I interpreted it?
I'm confused about where you're getting the idea that I think the mood should be indicative or "stated as a fact". While I would supply a form of εἶναι for the unexpressed verb, but for blessings such as this I'd favor the imperative ἔστω or perhaps a subjunctive.
Okay I see that I misunderstood what you meant, as Carl also pointed out. Thanks for your help, and sorry for the confusion!
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