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εἰπὲ λόγῳ

Posted: June 3rd, 2013, 1:43 pm
by Allan Rumsch
In Luke 7:7 - διὸ οὐδὲ ἐμαυτὸν ἠξίωσα πρὸς σὲ ἐλθεῖν: ἀλλὰ εἰπὲ λόγῳ, καὶ ἰαθήτω ὁ παῖς μου - the centurion tells Jesus to just say with a λόγῳ and his servent will be healed. It has the sense of the word being a thing like a tool that can cause healing to happen, because, I think, that this is an example of the instrumental case. It does not seem to have the sense that the λόγῳ has in the dative case, usually with an article and a preposition such as εν, where λόγῳ refers to scripture or to discourse.
Does this seem like a reasonable understanding of λόγῳ in this instance?

Re: εἰπὲ λόγῳ

Posted: June 4th, 2013, 2:26 am
by Stephen Carlson
Yes, the instrumental use of the dative is a plausible suggestion. It is not necessary to have the preposition ἐν for this use.

(By the way, I don't think anyone uses the 8-case system anymore.)

Re: εἰπὲ λόγῳ

Posted: June 4th, 2013, 2:58 am
by David Lim
Allan Rumsch wrote:In Luke 7:7 - διὸ οὐδὲ ἐμαυτὸν ἠξίωσα πρὸς σὲ ἐλθεῖν: ἀλλὰ εἰπὲ λόγῳ, καὶ ἰαθήτω ὁ παῖς μου - the centurion tells Jesus to just say with a λόγῳ and his servent will be healed. It has the sense of the word being a thing like a tool that can cause healing to happen, because, I think, that this is an example of the instrumental case.
It does seem to me to be an instrumental dative, but that does not imply that it is a tool that causes healing to happen. He said not "λογω ιασαι τον παιδα μου" but "ειπε λογω ..." Instead, it implies "I am not worthy, neither for you to come under my roof, nor for me to come to you, but I believe that you do not need to do anything more than give a word, and my servant will be healed.", where "λογω" is just the means by which Jesus was to give confirmation.

Re: εἰπὲ λόγῳ

Posted: June 4th, 2013, 10:46 am
by Barry Hofstetter
It's simply a pleonasm, what we mean in English by "Speak the word." Why make it more complicated?

Re: εἰπὲ λόγῳ

Posted: June 6th, 2013, 5:47 am
by David Lim
Barry Hofstetter wrote:It's simply a pleonasm, what we mean in English by "Speak the word." Why make it more complicated?
Yes, I think we're in complete agreement, but I think even that English rendering can be taken ambiguously to mean that there is particular kind of word which Jesus was to speak that has the power to heal, and I believe Allan may have misunderstood the meaning of "instrumental dative", so I was trying to explain that as well. By the way, I am not saying that we should avoid that English rendering, but only for the sake of clarifying here.

Re: εἰπὲ λόγῳ

Posted: June 7th, 2013, 11:10 am
by Scott Lawson
Barry Hofstetter wrote:It's simply a pleonasm, what we mean in English by "Speak the word." Why make it more complicated?
Barry,

Your comment interests me. I understand you to be indicating that λόγῳ is pleonastic (what else would one speak except words?) and that we get the same sense without it, so why push meaning into a pleonasm? Do I understand you correctly?

ἀλλὰ εἰπὲ, καὶ ἰαθήτω ὁ παῖς μου

Re: εἰπὲ λόγῳ

Posted: June 8th, 2013, 6:29 am
by Barry Hofstetter
Hey, Scott. Why do we use similar expressions in English?

Re: εἰπὲ λόγῳ

Posted: June 8th, 2013, 6:47 am
by Scott Lawson
Barry Hofstetter wrote:Hey, Scott. Why do we use similar expressions in English?
Barry, I thought I was gonna get to ask the questions!

Re: εἰπὲ λόγῳ

Posted: June 8th, 2013, 10:52 am
by Scott Lawson
Barry Hofstetter wrote:Hey, Scott. Why do we use similar expressions in English?
Barry it seemed to me you were warning against basing exegesis in pleonasms. This makes sense to me. As to why pleonasms are used both in Greek and English is to clarify or make more fully apparent the thought expressed.