propheteuo + dative in Jude 14

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Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: propheteuo + dative in Jude 14

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » October 7th, 2013, 12:43 pm

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:In first Kings we see προφητεύει used in a context where the authenticity of the prophecy is an issue and the dative pronoun is used:

1Kings 22:18 καὶ εἶπεν βασιλεὺς Ισραηλ πρὸς Ιωσαφατ βασιλέα Ιουδα Οὐκ εἶπα πρὸς σέ Οὐ προφητεύει οὗτός μοι καλά, διότι ἀλλ᾿ ἢ κακά;

NETS And the king of Israel said to Iosaphat, king of Iouda, “Did I not tell you that this one does not prophesy anything good to me, for on the contrary evil?”

1Kings 22:18 RSV And the king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, “Did I not tell you that he would not prophesy good concerning me, but evil?”
In 1Kings 22:18 μοι renders עלי a prepositon with the first singluar suffix. I looked at over 150 citations from the LXX to see if עלי is ever rendered with a dative pronoun alone (no preposition). It isn't common. The vast majority were prepositonal phrases. In Job we find some pronouns alone.
Job 16:13 ἐκύκλωσάν με λόγχαις βάλλοντες εἰς νεφρούς μου οὐ φειδόμενοι, ἐξέχεαν εἰς τὴν γῆν τὴν χολήν μου· 14 κατέβαλόν με πτῶμα ἐπὶ πτώματι, ἔδραμον πρός με δυνάμενοι.

με עלי

Job 19:5 ἔα δὲ ὅτι ἐπ᾿ ἐμοὶ μεγαλύνεσθε, ἐνάλλεσθε δέ μοι ὀνείδει.

Job 19:11 δεινῶς δέ μοι ὀργῇ ἐχρήσατο, ἡγήσατο δέ με ὥσπερ ἐχθρόν.

Job 21:27 ὥστε οἶδα ὑμᾶς ὅτι τόλμῃ ἐπίκεισθέ μοι·

μοι עלי


Job 30:1 νυνὶ δὲ κατεγέλασάν μου, ἐλάχιστοι νῦν νουθετοῦσίν με ἐν μέρει,ϗ ὧν ἐξουδένουν πατέρας αὐτῶν,V οὓς οὐχ ἡγησάμην εἶναι ἀξίους κυνῶν τῶν ἐμῶν νομάδων.

Job 30:15 ἐπιστρέφονται δέ μου αἱ ὀδύναι, ᾤχετό μου ἡ ἐλπὶς ὥσπερ πνεῦμα καὶ ὥσπερ νέφος ἡ σωτηρία μου.

Neh. 13:22 καὶ εἶπα τοῖς Λευίταις, οἳ ἦσαν καθαριζόμενοι καὶ ἐρχόμενοι φυλάσσοντες τὰς πύλας, ἁγιάζειν τὴν ἡμέραν τοῦ σαββάτου. πρὸς ταῦτα μνήσθητί μου, ὁ θεός, καὶ φεῖσαί μου κατὰ τὸ πλῆθος τοῦ ἐλέους σου.

μου עלי
Note that In 1Kings 22:8 we find a different LXX rendering of the same words in Hebrew found in1King 22:18.

1Kings 22:8 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ βασιλεὺς Ισραηλ πρὸς Ιωσαφατ Ἔτι ἔστιν ἀνὴρ εἷς τοῦ ἐπερωτῆσαι τὸν κύριον δι᾿ αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐγὼ μεμίσηκα αὐτόν, ὅτι οὐ λαλεῖ περὶ ἐμοῦ καλά, ἀλλ᾿ ἢ κακά, Μιχαιας υἱὸς Ιεμλα. καὶ εἶπεν Ιωσαφατ βασιλεὺς Ιουδα Μὴ λεγέτω ὁ βασιλεὺς οὕτως.

ὅτι οὐ λαλεῖ περὶ ἐμοῦ καλά, ἀλλ᾿ ἢ κακά renders ‏לא־יתנבא עלי טוב כי אם־רע in 1King 22:8

Οὐ προφητεύει οὗτός μοι καλά, διότι ἀλλ᾿ ἢ κακά; renders ‏ לוא־יתנבא עלי טוב כי אם־רעin 1King 22:18

In verse 8 λαλεῖ is used to render יתנבא rather than προφητεύει, περὶ ἐμοῦ renders עלי rather than μοι.
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

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Re: propheteuo + dative in Jude 14

Post by Thomas Farrar » October 8th, 2013, 4:54 pm

Stephen,

I'm not sure I follow you - are you suggesting that in v. 14 there is a break from the third person pronouns in the preceding verses, and that the prophecy is to/concerning the elect?

Stirling,

I've done my best to assemble all the uses of propheteuo in the LXX, Apocrypha and NT which include an indirect object. I've tried to classify them according to the constructive (preposition or dative) and determine whether they follow the alleged special idiom. Please have a look if you would, and let me know if you think it would be far-fetched to suggest the existence of such a special idiom, or it remains far-fetched:

Propheteuo + dative used of prophecy which was deemed (either by the writer or the speaker in the narrative) as inauthentic:
"...ὅτι ὁράσεις ψευδεῖς καὶ μαντείας καὶ οἰωνίσματα καὶ προαιρέσεις καρδίας αὐτῶν αὐτοὶ προφητεύουσιν ὑμῖν" (Jer. 14:14 LXX; cp. 14:16 which has similar construction with third person pronoun)

"καὶ ἐν Βαβυλῶνι ἀποθανῇ καὶ ἐκεῖ ταφήσῃ, σὺ καὶ πάντες οἱ φίλοι σου, οἷς ἐπροφήτευσας αὐτοῖς ψευδῆ" (Jer. 20:6 LXX) - third person pronoun

"ὅτι ψευδῆ αὐτοὶ προφητεύουσιν ὑμῖν πρὸς τὸ μακρῦναι ὑμᾶς ἀπὸ τῆς γῆς ὑμῶν." (Jer. 34:10 LXX; similar 34:14, 34:15, 34:16)

"ὅτι ἄδικα αὐτοὶ προφητεύουσιν ὑμῖν ἐπὶ τῷ ὀνόματί μου, καὶ οὐκ ἀπέστειλα αὐτούς" (Jer. 36:9 LXX)

"Ἀπόστειλον πρὸς τὴν ἀποικίαν λέγων Οὕτως εἶπεν κύριος ἐπὶ Σαμαιαν τὸν Νελαμίτην Ἐπειδὴ ἐπροφήτευσεν ὑμῖν Σαμαιας, καὶ ἐγὼ οὐκ ἀπέστειλα αὐτόν, καὶ πεποιθέναι ἐποίησεν ὑμᾶς ἐπ᾿ ἀδίκοις" (Jer. 36:31 LXX)

"καὶ ποῦ εἰσιν οἱ προφῆται ὑμῶν οἱ προφητεύσαντες ὑμῖν λέγοντες ὅτι Οὐ μὴ ἔλθῃ βασιλεὺς Βαβυλῶνος ἐπὶ τὴν γῆν ταύτην" (Jer. 44:19 LXX)

"ὅτι ὁ ἄνθρωπος οὗτος οὐ χρησμολογεῖ εἰρήνην τῷ λαῷ τούτῳ ἀλλ᾿ ἢ πονηρά" (Jer. 45:4 LXX) - here a different verb than propheteuo is used but still translated 'prophesy'

"Καὶ τίς εἶ σύ, Αχιωρ καὶ οἱ μισθωτοὶ τοῦ Εφραιμ, ὅτι ἐπροφήτευσας ἐν ἡμῖν καθὼς σήμερον καὶ εἶπας τὸ γένος Ισραηλ μὴ πολεμῆσαι," (Judith 6:2 LXX) - spoken pejoratively by Assyrians to Achior, who in context gave an authentic prophecy against them

"λεγοντες προφητευσον ημιν χριστε τις εστιν ο παισας σε" (Matt. 26:68)
Propheteuo + pronoun + genitive used of prophecy which either the writer or the speaker in the narrative believes to be authentic:
"καὶ ἐπροφήτευσεν Ελιεζερ ὁ τοῦ Δωδια ἀπὸ Μαρισης ἐπὶ Ιωσαφατ λέγων..." (2 Chr. 20:37 LXX)

"Καὶ ἐπροφήτευσεν Αγγαιος ὁ προφήτης καὶ Ζαχαριας ὁ τοῦ Αδδω προφητείαν ἐπὶ τοὺς Ιουδαίους τοὺς ἐν Ιουδα καὶ Ιερουσαλημ ἐν ὀνόματι θεοῦ Ισραηλ ἐπ᾿ αὐτούς" (Ezra 5:1 LXX)

"καὶ εἶπεν Ιερεμιας πρὸς τοὺς ἄρχοντας καὶ παντὶ τῷ λαῷ λέγων Κύριος ἀπέστειλέν με προφητεῦσαι ἐπὶ τὸν οἶκον τοῦτον καὶ ἐπὶ τὴν πόλιν" (Jer. 33:12 LXX)

"καὶ ἄνθρωπος ἦν προφητεύων τῷ ὀνόματι κυρίου, Ουριας υἱὸς Σαμαιου ἐκ Καριαθιαριμ, καὶ ἐπροφήτευσεν περὶ τῆς γῆς ταύτης κατὰ πάντας τοὺς λόγους Ιερεμιου" (Jer. 33:20 LXX)

"Οἱ προφῆται οἱ γεγονότες πρότεροί μου καὶ πρότεροι ὑμῶν ἀπὸ τοῦ αἰῶνος καὶ ἐπροφήτευσαν ἐπὶ γῆς πολλῆς καὶ ἐπὶ βασιλείας μεγάλας εἰς πόλεμον" (Jer. 35:8 LXX - Jeremiah is speaking here referring to true prophets of old)

"καὶ εἰς τὸν συγκλεισμὸν Ιερουσαλημ ἑτοιμάσεις τὸ πρόσωπόν σου καὶ τὸν βραχίονά σου στερεώσεις καὶ προφητεύσεις ἐπ᾿ αὐτήν" (Ezek. 4:7 LXX)

"Υἱὲ ἀνθρώπου, ἰδοὺ οἶκος Ισραηλ ὁ παραπικραίνων λέγοντες λέγουσιν Ἡ ὅρασις, ἣν οὗτος ὁρᾷ, εἰς ἡμέρας πολλάς, καὶ εἰς καιροὺς μακροὺς οὗτος προφητεύει" (Ezek. 12:27 LXX) - here the preposition is eis and thus the noun is in accusative case

"Υἱὲ ἀνθρώπου, προφήτευσον ἐπὶ τοὺς προφήτας τοῦ Ισραηλ..." (Ezek. 13:2 LXX)

"Υἱὲ ἀνθρώπου, προφήτευσον ἐπὶ τοὺς ποιμένας τοῦ Ισραηλ..." (Ezek. 34:2 LXX)

"Καὶ σύ, υἱὲ ἀνθρώπου, προφήτευσον ἐπὶ τὰ ὄρη Ισραηλ..." (Ezek. 36:1 LXX)

"διὰ τοῦτο προφήτευσον ἐπὶ τὴν γῆν τοῦ Ισραηλ..." (Ezek. 36:6 LXX)

"καὶ εἶπεν πρός με Προφήτευσον ἐπὶ τὰ ὀστᾶ ταῦτα..." (Ezek. 37:4 LXX)

"καὶ εἶπεν πρός με Προφήτευσον, υἱὲ ἀνθρώπου, προφήτευσον ἐπὶ τὸ πνεῦμα" (Ezek. 37:9 LXX)

"...καὶ εἶπεν κύριος πρός με Βάδιζε προφήτευσον ἐπὶ τὸν λαόν μου Ισραηλ." (Amos 7:15 LXX)

"Ἐν δὲ τῷ δευτέρῳ ἔτει τῆς τοῦ Δαρείου βασιλείας ἐπροφήτευσεν Αγγαιος καὶ Ζαχαριας ὁ τοῦ Εδδι οἱ προφῆται ἐπὶ τοὺς Ιουδαίους τοὺς ἐν τῇ Ιουδαίᾳ καὶ Ιερουσαλημ ἐπὶ τῷ ὀνόματι κυρίου θεοῦ Ισραηλ ἐπ᾿ αὐτούς" (1 Esdras 6:1)

"υποκριται καλως προεφητευσεν περι υμων ησαιας λεγων" (Matt. 15:7 cp. Mark 7:6)

"και λεγει μοι δει σε παλιν προφητευσαι επι λαοις και εθνεσιν και γλωσσαις και βασιλευσιν πολλοις" (Rev. 10:11)
Difficult cases/possible counter-examples:
"καὶ εἶπαν οἱ ἱερεῖς καὶ οἱ ψευδοπροφῆται πρὸς τοὺς ἄρχοντας καὶ παντὶ τῷ λαῷ Κρίσις θανάτου τῷ ἀνθρώπῳ τούτῳ, ὅτι ἐπροφήτευσεν κατὰ τῆς πόλεως ταύτης" (Jer. 33:11 LXX) - prepositional construction, spoken by false prophets of Jeremiah. However it could perhaps be argued that the narrator is using this construction to emphasize that Jeremiah was a true prophet?

"καὶ νῦν διὰ τί συνελοιδορήσατε Ιερεμιαν τὸν ἐξ Αναθωθ τὸν προφητεύσαντα ὑμῖν" (Jer. 36:27 LXX) - dative construction. In the text used by Brenton (quoted here), the question is phrased positively, asked by God to Shemaiah -- thus the implication is that Jeremiah's prophecy is authentic. However, in the NETS, as in the MT, the question is phrased negatively, spoken by the false prophet Shemaiah to the priests in Jerusalem: "And now why have you not reviled Jeremias of Anathoth who prophesied to you?" (I would assume the critical text used by NETS translators differs from that used by Brenton)

"καὶ εἶπεν βασιλεὺς Ισραηλ πρὸς Ιωσαφατ βασιλέα Ιουδα Οὐκ εἶπα πρὸς σέ Οὐ προφητεύει οὗτός μοι καλά, διότι ἀλλ᾿ ἢ κακά" (1 Kings 22:18 LXX) - uses dative construction
"καὶ ἐγὼ ἐμίσησα αὐτόν, ὅτι οὐκ ἔστιν προφητεύων περὶ ἐμοῦ εἰς ἀγαθά" (2 Chr. 18:7; cp. 18:17 similar) - In 1 Kings 22:18 LXX, as you pointed out, the dative is used of apparently authentic prophecy. Even more telling is the fact that the parallel account in 2 Chr. 18:7 uses the prepositional construction. This suggests that, at least for this writer, they were interchangeable.

"προφῆται τοῦ Ισραηλ οἱ προφητεύοντες ἐπὶ Ιερουσαλημ καὶ οἱ ὁρῶντες αὐτῇ εἰρήνην, καὶ εἰρήνη οὐκ ἔστιν, λέγει κύριος" (Ezek. 13:16 LXX) - prepositional construction used although God is referring to false prophets
My tentative conclusion would be that there is a tendency for the prepositional construction to be used more of authentic prophecy, and the dative construction of inauthentic, but that this is driven by contextual factors rather than being a 'rule' or 'idiom' that the writers are consciously using. It cannot be said that the distinction is always important, given the counter-examples above. Furthermore, the Greek of the LXX is older than that of the NT, and we have very few cases in the NT from which to draw.

Finally, I would agree with what others have said, that the context of Jude and 1 Enoch go against the idea that Jude uses the dative to cast aspersions on 1 Enoch. It is worth noting that even Augustine, who had a low view of 1 Enoch and its Watchers story, still affirmed that Jude cited 1 Enoch positively:
"For though there is some truth in these apocryphal writings, yet they contain so many false statements, that they have no canonical authority. We cannot deny that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, left some divine writings, for this is asserted by the Apostle Jude in his canonical epistle." (The City of God 15.23)

Thanks again to all for your input so far.
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Re: propheteuo + dative in Jude 14

Post by Thomas Farrar » October 8th, 2013, 5:07 pm

Stirling,

I only saw your post about the Job texts now. I'm not able to read Hebrew or Greek yet, so I'd appreciate if you could summarise in a bit more detail how this relates to the issue at hand.

It is very interesting that 1 Kings 22:8 renders the same Hebrew as 22:18 using the prepositional construction (albeit with a different verb). I would say between that and the use of propheteuo + preposition in the parallel account in 2 Chronicles 18:7 & 18:17, we can conclude that there is certainly no universally applicable 'special idiom' of this kind. Would you agree with that assessment?
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Re: propheteuo + dative in Jude 14

Post by Stephen Hughes » October 8th, 2013, 9:19 pm

Thomas Farrar wrote:Stephen,
I'm not sure I follow you - are you suggesting that in v. 14 there is a break from the third person pronouns in the preceding verses, and that the prophecy is to/concerning the elect?
The original prophesy in the Book of Enoch was given to the elect / righteous - presumably they were the ones in "Church" - the ungodly were perhaps not spending their time searching out a teacher of righteousness to listen to.

I'm saying that although τούτοις is in the 3rd person (they), it is possible that the authour may be referring to the 2nd person (youse). Just knowing the grammar of the langauge is not enough to understand the language. Take this example: If a minister is preaching and quotes (for example),
2Chronicles 1:11, 12 wrote: "And God said to Solomon, Because this was in thine heart, and thou hast not asked riches, wealth, or honour, nor the life of thine enemies, neither yet hast asked long life; but hast asked wisdom and knowledge for thyself, that thou mayest judge my people, over whom I have made thee king: Wisdom and knowledge is granted unto thee; and I will give thee riches, and wealth, and honour, such as none of the kings have had that have been before thee, neither shall there any after thee have the like."
then you know that the sermon is more than a history lesson, right? They are applying those verses to their congregation. The people imagine themselves in the place of Solomon, or perhaps see Solomon as a standard to measure their hearts by. The original verse is in the 3rd person ("to Solomon"), but you know the preacher is talking about "to you" (the 2nd person).

You would naturally do that in English, but to do that in a foreign language you will probably have to "manually" introduce that way of thinking into your analysis. Not thinking beyond the simple grammar ("the form in Greek is 3rd person therefore the meaning is 3rd person") is one of the disadvantages of doing your Bible reading in Greek. Greek per se is not the problem, it is something that all second language learners have to deal with - and one of the reasons why it is so hard to find some types of humour (multiple or implied applications of meaning) in a foreign langauge.

I'm saying that you should at least consider this way of thinking when you are looking at this verse.
Last edited by Stephen Hughes on October 8th, 2013, 9:39 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: propheteuo + dative in Jude 14

Post by Jonathan Robie » October 8th, 2013, 9:24 pm

Thomas Farrar wrote:My tentative conclusion would be that there is a tendency for the prepositional construction to be used more of authentic prophecy, and the dative construction of inauthentic, but that this is driven by contextual factors rather than being a 'rule' or 'idiom' that the writers are consciously using. It cannot be said that the distinction is always important, given the counter-examples above. Furthermore, the Greek of the LXX is older than that of the NT, and we have very few cases in the NT from which to draw.
Color me skeptical.

Languages don't tend to work this way, lexicons don't say this is how the verb works, and this feels a lot like you are trying to create grammar rules to compute theology.

You are reasoning from only a few examples here. Even with these few examples, there are enough exceptions that the rule doesn't seem to work. I really wouldn't put a lot of weight on this theory. I doubt very much that the case tells you if a prophecy is considered authentic or not. If I'm wrong, you need a whole lot more evidence to show me that I'm wrong.
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Re: propheteuo + dative in Jude 14

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » October 9th, 2013, 2:36 pm

Thomas Farrar wrote:Stirling,

I only saw your post about the Job texts now. I'm not able to read Hebrew or Greek yet, so I'd appreciate if you could summarise in a bit more detail how this relates to the issue at hand.

It is very interesting that 1 Kings 22:8 renders the same Hebrew as 22:18 using the prepositional construction (albeit with a different verb). I would say between that and the use of propheteuo + preposition in the parallel account in 2 Chronicles 18:7 & 18:17, we can conclude that there is certainly no universally applicable 'special idiom' of this kind. Would you agree with that assessment?

the text again:

1Kings 22:18 καὶ εἶπεν βασιλεὺς Ισραηλ πρὸς Ιωσαφατ βασιλέα Ιουδα Οὐκ εἶπα πρὸς σέ Οὐ προφητεύει οὗτός μοι καλά, διότι ἀλλ᾿ ἢ κακά;

NETS And the king of Israel said to Iosaphat, king of Iouda, “Did I not tell you that this one does not prophesy anything good to me, for on the contrary evil?”

1Kings 22:18 RSV And the king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, “Did I not tell you that he would not prophesy good concerning me, but evil?”


Note that In 1Kings 22:8 we find a different LXX rendering of the same words in Hebrew found in1King 22:18.

1Kings 22:8 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ βασιλεὺς Ισραηλ πρὸς Ιωσαφατ Ἔτι ἔστιν ἀνὴρ εἷς τοῦ ἐπερωτῆσαι τὸν κύριον δι᾿ αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐγὼ μεμίσηκα αὐτόν, ὅτι οὐ λαλεῖ περὶ ἐμοῦ καλά, ἀλλ᾿ ἢ κακά, Μιχαιας υἱὸς Ιεμλα. καὶ εἶπεν Ιωσαφατ βασιλεὺς Ιουδα Μὴ λεγέτω ὁ βασιλεὺς οὕτως.

ὅτι οὐ λαλεῖ περὶ ἐμοῦ καλά, ἀλλ᾿ ἢ κακά renders ‏לא־יתנבא עלי טוב כי אם־רע in 1King 22:8

NETS does not speak anything good about me, but only evil

Οὐ προφητεύει οὗτός μοι καλά, διότι ἀλλ᾿ ἢ κακά; renders ‏ לוא־יתנבא עלי טוב כי אם־רעin 1King 22:18

NETS does not prophesy anything good to me, for on the contrary evil

In verse 8 λαλεῖ is used to render יתנבא rather than προφητεύει, περὶ ἐμοῦ renders עלי rather than μοι.
Thomas,

We do not see what one would expect in 1 Kings 22:8 and 1 Kings 22:18. First we would expect יתנבא to be rendered by προφητεύει in both verses. Second we would expect to see a prepositional phrase something like περὶ ἐμοῦ for עלי when יתנבא is rendered by προφητεύει. The use of μοι alone would be more idiomatic with the verb λαλεῖ. So it looks like two not quite idiomatic expressions in a close context which could be cleaned up by exchanging προφητεύει with λαλεῖ, since λαλεῖ μοι is idiomatic and προφητεύει περὶ ἐμοῦ is idiomatic. A more traditional translation would have used προφητεύει περὶ ἐμοῦ in both verses.

The text as is stands in Rahlfs[1] edition is interesting. The existence of two essentially identical phrases in close proximity being translated with two not quite idiomatic expressions where the swap of two words solves the problem should appeal to people who play word games or study language disorders.

[1]George do you have the Göttingen Septuagint? How does it read in 1 Kings 22:8 and 1 Kings 22:18?
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