Hello; My name is Natan Teixeira, I'm from Brazil.
2 Thessalonians 2:7 (LEB)
"For the mystery of lawlessness is at work already; only the one who now restrains will do so until he is out of the way"
I need some help in the meaning of this word (Ginomai) and the way It is translated here in this passage. In almost all versions this text puts this word to mean something being taking out of the way, almost as something tangible being removed from one place. In my studies I've seen that this is the only place where this word is given this meaning.
In the Greek Lexicon these are some of the meanings given for this word: "I come into being, am born, become, come about, happen"; Its givens even the meaning of something being "reveled".
In my understanding the correct meaning of this passage would be of something or one being brought into the open, being manifested, reveled, as opposed to being removed from place. But I'm no theologian. If someone could give me better understanding in this It would help a lot.
Thanks.
G1096 Ginomai - meaning of the word
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Re: G1096 Ginomai - meaning of the word
Welcome to B-Greek. You are right - this usage is a little unusual.Natan.bt wrote: ↑December 23rd, 2024, 9:52 am Hello; My name is Natan Teixeira, I'm from Brazil.
2 Thessalonians 2:7 (LEB)
"For the mystery of lawlessness is at work already; only the one who now restrains will do so until he is out of the way"
I need some help in the meaning of this word (Ginomai) and the way It is translated here in this passage. In almost all versions this text puts this word to mean something being taking out of the way, almost as something tangible being removed from one place. In my studies I've seen that this is the only place where this word is given this meaning.
It looks like you are using Strong's Lexicon here? That doesn't tell you much about the Greek word, it only tells you how the King james translated it. Read the introduction to Strong's to see what I mean.
Do you have access to other Greek lexicons? Do you read Greek sentences, or just use an interlinear or something? Strong's just isn't going to help you understand the language. Neither is an interlinear.
What lexicons do you have access to? How much Greek do you know? Are you working on learning the language?Natan.bt wrote: ↑December 23rd, 2024, 9:52 amIn my understanding the correct meaning of this passage would be of something or one being brought into the open, being manifested, reveled, as opposed to being removed from place. But I'm no theologian. If someone could give me better understanding in this It would help a lot.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
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Re: G1096 Ginomai - meaning of the word
Here's my attempt to answer the basic questions you are asking. I used Abbott-Smith and GPT to generate this, working fairly quickly - there may be errors. I hope others on this forum will look at it and correct or improve anything that needs it.
γίνομαι
A versatile Greek verb widely used in the New Testament and Septuagint. It commonly replaces the Attic γίγνομαι in Koine Greek (cf. Moulton, Prolegomena, 47; Blass, §6, 8; Mayser, 166 f.). In the Septuagint (LXX), it frequently translates the Hebrew הָיָה (*hayah*), meaning "to be" or "to become."
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Core Root Meaning: "To Come Into Being"
At its heart, γίνομαι expresses the idea of something that "did not exist before but now exists, appears, or happens." This foundational concept of transition or emergence forms the basis for its various uses.
---
How the Root Meaning Expands into Different Senses
Common Threads in All Senses
The unifying concept across all these senses is "transition" or "emergence." Whether describing birth, creation, transformation, or the occurrence of events, γίνομαι always involves something "becoming" that was not there before.
This root meaning also explains the frequent use of γίνομαι in eschatological or prophetic contexts. In passages like 2 Thessalonians 2:7, the restrainer "becoming out of the way" reflects this same idea of transition—moving from presence to absence, enabling a new reality to emerge.
γίνομαι
A versatile Greek verb widely used in the New Testament and Septuagint. It commonly replaces the Attic γίγνομαι in Koine Greek (cf. Moulton, Prolegomena, 47; Blass, §6, 8; Mayser, 166 f.). In the Septuagint (LXX), it frequently translates the Hebrew הָיָה (*hayah*), meaning "to be" or "to become."
---
Core Root Meaning: "To Come Into Being"
At its heart, γίνομαι expresses the idea of something that "did not exist before but now exists, appears, or happens." This foundational concept of transition or emergence forms the basis for its various uses.
---
How the Root Meaning Expands into Different Senses
- Emergence of Persons, Things, or Events
Core Idea: Something or someone comes into being or arises.
Derived Senses:
- To be born or created: The verb naturally extends to describe the origin of life or the creation of things (e.g., John 1:3: "Through Him all things were made").
- To arise or appear: It applies to individuals, phenomena, or objects making a first appearance (e.g., Mark 1:4: "John appeared, baptizing").
Examples:
- Romans 1:3: "Born of the seed of David" – The physical origin of Jesus.
- John 1:6: "There came a man sent from God" – The emergence of John the Baptist. - Transition into a New State
Core Idea: Something undergoes a transformation, moving from one condition to another.
Derived Senses:
- To become: Describes a shift in state, identity, or condition (e.g., 1 Corinthians 13:11: "When I became a man, I put away childish things").
- To result in: Indicates the outcome or effect of a process or action.
Examples:
- John 2:9: "The water became wine" – A literal transformation.
- Luke 2:42: "When He became twelve years old" – A transition into a new stage of life. - Occurrence of Events
Core Idea: A process or event comes into existence or happens at a specific time or place.
Derived Senses:
- To happen or take place: Used for events or actions that occur (e.g., Luke 2:15: "Let us go to see this thing that has happened").
- Formulaic use in narratives: "καὶ ἐγένετο" ("And it came to pass") reflects the coming into being of an event within a story.
Examples:
- Matthew 5:18: "Until heaven and earth pass away" – Describing future events.
- Luke 1:8: "And it came to pass while he was serving as priest" – A narrative transition. - Being Made, Done, or Enacted
Core Idea: The process of bringing something into existence or carrying out an action.
Derived Senses:
- To be made: Applied to the creation or enactment of laws, rituals, or decrees (e.g., Hebrews 9:22: "Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness").
- To be performed or observed: Refers to actions or practices taking place.
Examples:
- Matthew 26:2: "After two days, the Passover is coming" – The event being observed.
- Galatians 3:17: "The law, which came 430 years later" – The introduction of the law. - Existential or Metaphorical Uses
Core Idea: To describe being or existing in a particular state or condition.
Derived Senses:
- To exist or to be found: Used in a more static or existential sense (e.g., Acts 4:21: "Not finding how to punish them").
- To take a metaphorical state: Often applies to abstract conditions or qualities (e.g., Revelation 11:15: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord").
Examples:
- Romans 7:3: "She becomes another man's wife" – A metaphorical use for legal status.
Common Threads in All Senses
The unifying concept across all these senses is "transition" or "emergence." Whether describing birth, creation, transformation, or the occurrence of events, γίνομαι always involves something "becoming" that was not there before.
This root meaning also explains the frequent use of γίνομαι in eschatological or prophetic contexts. In passages like 2 Thessalonians 2:7, the restrainer "becoming out of the way" reflects this same idea of transition—moving from presence to absence, enabling a new reality to emerge.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Re: G1096 Ginomai - meaning of the word
Thanks a lot Jonathan for the answer.
"For the mystery of lawlessness is at work already; only the one who now restrains until from out of the midst he emerges" ?
Would this be wrong from the point of view of the original passage in Greek?
My main goal here with the understanding of this word is to better understand the eschatological passage of this chapter. And my understanding is that Paul is saying that the coming of Jesus is restrained until appears the lawlessness one, the antichrist. So the coming of Jesus would be the thing being restrained and the emerging of the antichrist being the event restrainer.
Again, thanks a lot for your time used here to answer me!
Yes! I don't read Greek yet, so my studies are limited to the Lexicons available. The ones that I use are Strong and Thayer Lexicon. Usually in Bible Hub site and app. I know that the knowledge there is limited, so my plan is to start this next year a course in Biblical Greek. For now the context and comparing verse with verse is the way that I'm learning the truths in the Bible.It looks like you are using Strong's Lexicon here? That doesn't tell you much about the Greek word, it only tells you how the King james translated it. Read the introduction to Strong's to see what I mean.
Do you have access to other Greek lexicons? Do you read Greek sentences, or just use an interlinear or something? Strong's just isn't going to help you understand the language. Neither is an interlinear.
It looks like you are using Strong's Lexicon here? That doesn't tell you much about the Greek word, it only tells you how the King james translated it. Read the introduction to Strong's to see what I mean.
Do you have access to other Greek lexicons? Do you read Greek sentences, or just use an interlinear or something? Strong's just isn't going to help you understand the language. Neither is an interlinear.
What lexicons do you have access to? How much Greek do you know? Are you working on learning the language?
Ok, thanks a lot for de explanation about the meaning of the word. But let me ask another thing: If the primary usage for this word brings the Sense of "transition or emergence", could this verse mean this:The unifying concept across all these senses is "transition" or "emergence." Whether describing birth, creation, transformation, or the occurrence of events, γίνομαι always involves something "becoming" that was not there before.
This root meaning also explains the frequent use of γίνομαι in eschatological or prophetic contexts. In passages like 2 Thessalonians 2:7, the restrainer "becoming out of the way" reflects this same idea of transition—moving from presence to absence, enabling a new reality to emerge.
"For the mystery of lawlessness is at work already; only the one who now restrains until from out of the midst he emerges" ?
Would this be wrong from the point of view of the original passage in Greek?
My main goal here with the understanding of this word is to better understand the eschatological passage of this chapter. And my understanding is that Paul is saying that the coming of Jesus is restrained until appears the lawlessness one, the antichrist. So the coming of Jesus would be the thing being restrained and the emerging of the antichrist being the event restrainer.
Again, thanks a lot for your time used here to answer me!
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Re: G1096 Ginomai - meaning of the word
To add to what Jonathan said --
Words get their meanings in the contexts in which they are used. On and the same word can "mean" different thing in different contexts. Even a detailed dictionary or lexicon can't exhaust all possible nuanced meanings, let alone pragmatic nuances or connotations.
Here we can see how the preceding words directly affect the interpretation of the verb. It doesn't work alone but the words work together and affect each other's meaning. You should understand ἐκ μέσου γένηται as one phrase. It becomes quite clear that the transition, change of state, is away from middle of something. The direct near context doesn't tell exactly what that something is. It's a matter of wider exegetical interpretation (which we don't handle here).
BTW, if you want to ask questions here, you should at least quote the original language, not English. I copied the words from https://www.esv.org/2+Thessalonians+2/, and there are several other ways to do the same.
Words get their meanings in the contexts in which they are used. On and the same word can "mean" different thing in different contexts. Even a detailed dictionary or lexicon can't exhaust all possible nuanced meanings, let alone pragmatic nuances or connotations.
Here we can see how the preceding words directly affect the interpretation of the verb. It doesn't work alone but the words work together and affect each other's meaning. You should understand ἐκ μέσου γένηται as one phrase. It becomes quite clear that the transition, change of state, is away from middle of something. The direct near context doesn't tell exactly what that something is. It's a matter of wider exegetical interpretation (which we don't handle here).
BTW, if you want to ask questions here, you should at least quote the original language, not English. I copied the words from https://www.esv.org/2+Thessalonians+2/, and there are several other ways to do the same.
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Re: G1096 Ginomai - meaning of the word
Thayer's is old, but still pretty good - much better than Strong's.Natan.bt wrote: ↑December 23rd, 2024, 10:21 pm Thanks a lot Jonathan for the answer.
Yes! I don't read Greek yet, so my studies are limited to the Lexicons available. The ones that I use are Strong and Thayer Lexicon. Usually in Bible Hub site and app. I know that the knowledge there is limited, so my plan is to start this next year a course in Biblical Greek. For now the context and comparing verse with verse is the way that I'm learning the truths in the Bible.It looks like you are using Strong's Lexicon here? That doesn't tell you much about the Greek word, it only tells you how the King james translated it. Read the introduction to Strong's to see what I mean.
Do you have access to other Greek lexicons? Do you read Greek sentences, or just use an interlinear or something? Strong's just isn't going to help you understand the language. Neither is an interlinear.
It looks like you are using Strong's Lexicon here? That doesn't tell you much about the Greek word, it only tells you how the King james translated it. Read the introduction to Strong's to see what I mean.
Do you have access to other Greek lexicons? Do you read Greek sentences, or just use an interlinear or something? Strong's just isn't going to help you understand the language. Neither is an interlinear.
What lexicons do you have access to? How much Greek do you know? Are you working on learning the language?
This is a forum for people who are learning to read biblical Greek, so we won't be interested in discussing the text in English or via interlinears. One of our rules is to quote the passage in Greek when you ask questions so that we are all looking at the Greek text together. Do you know at least the alphabet? Would you be open to getting a head start on learning Greek before your course begins?
Out of the midst of what? I think you are trying too hard to make the Greek say something you want it to say, letting your theology drive your interpretation of the language.Natan.bt wrote: ↑December 23rd, 2024, 10:21 pm Ok, thanks a lot for de explanation about the meaning of the word. But let me ask another thing: If the primary usage for this word brings the Sense of "transition or emergence", could this verse mean this:
"For the mystery of lawlessness is at work already; only the one who now restrains until from out of the midst he emerges" ?
Would this be wrong from the point of view of the original passage in Greek?
My main goal here with the understanding of this word is to better understand the eschatological passage of this chapter. And my understanding is that Paul is saying that the coming of Jesus is restrained until appears the lawlessness one, the antichrist. So the coming of Jesus would be the thing being restrained and the emerging of the antichrist being the event restrainer.
Let me use GPT to create an explanation of why I find this unlikely. And a note of caution - GPT gets things wrong, I have not checked this as carefully as I should, so I hope people will weigh in if there are mistakes. Another note of caution: just asking GPT to do this won't get you great results, it would be complicated to explain exactly what I am doing to create this. But it helps me put together an answer to the question you are asking much faster than I could otherwise.
Understanding ἐκ μέσου and ἐν μέσῳ
This explanation examines the core meanings of ἐκ μέσου ("out of the midst") and ἐν μέσῳ ("in the midst"), with examples from the New Testament, LXX, and papyri. It also explains why the proposed interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2:7 ("until from out of the midst he emerges") is not plausible.
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1. Core Meanings
- ἐκ μέσου: Refers to removal, absence, or being taken away. It indicates that something or someone is no longer in a central or obstructive position.
Key Idea: "Out of the way," "removed from the midst." - ἐν μέσῳ: Refers to presence or centrality. It indicates that something or someone is in a central position, physically or metaphorically.
Key Idea: "In the way," "in the midst."
- ἐκ μέσου implies leaving or being removed from a position.
- ἐν μέσῳ implies being actively present or central to a situation.
2. Examples of ἐκ μέσου
- New Testament:
- Colossians 2:14:
Greek: "ἦρκεν ἐκ τοῦ μέσου."
English: "He has taken it out of the way."
Refers to removing the "record of debt," making it null and void. It signifies complete removal. - 1 Corinthians 5:2:
Greek: "ἵνα ὁ ποιήσας τοῦτο ἐκ μέσου ᾖ."
English: "So that the one who has done this might be removed from among you."
The sinner is expelled from the congregation—removed entirely.
- Colossians 2:14:
- LXX:
- Psalm 55:11 (54:11 LXX):
Greek: "ἄδικία καὶ πόνος καὶ ἀδικία ἐκ μέσου αὐτῶν."
English: "Wickedness, trouble, and injustice are removed from among them."
Refers to the removal of moral and social corruption. - Zechariah 13:2:
Greek: "ἐκ μέσου τοῦ λαοῦ ἐκκλινῶ τοὺς ψευδοπροφήτας."
English: "I will remove the false prophets from among the people."
Describes removing obstructive or harmful influences.
- Psalm 55:11 (54:11 LXX):
- Papyri:
- P.Flor. 1.82.10 (2nd century CE):
Greek: "ἐκ μέσου γενομένων τῶν χρεῶν."
English: "When the debts were removed from the midst."
Refers to the resolution or cancellation of debts—complete removal.
- P.Flor. 1.82.10 (2nd century CE):
3. Examples of ἐν μέσῳ
- New Testament:
- John 8:3:
Greek: "Καὶ τάξας αὐτὴν ἐν μέσῳ."
English: "And he set her in the midst."
The woman is placed in a central, visible position among the crowd. - Revelation 5:6:
Greek: "Καὶ εἶδον ἐν μέσῳ τοῦ θρόνου."
English: "And I saw in the midst of the throne."
Describes the Lamb standing in a central and prominent position.
- John 8:3:
- LXX:
- Exodus 14:27:
Greek: "Καὶ ἐκράτησε ὁ κύριος τοὺς Αἰγυπτίους ἐν μέσῳ τῆς θαλάσσης."
English: "And the Lord overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea."
The Egyptians are surrounded by the sea, trapped in its center. - Psalm 22:22 (21:22 LXX):
Greek: "ἐν μέσῳ ἐκκλησίας."
English: "In the midst of the congregation."
Indicates a central position within a group.
- Exodus 14:27:
- Papyri:
- P.Mich. 8.507.4 (1st century BCE):
Greek: "ἐν μέσῳ τῶν πραγματῶν."
English: "In the midst of the matters."
Suggests being actively involved in ongoing affairs.
- P.Mich. 8.507.4 (1st century BCE):
4. Why the Proposed Interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2:7 Is Not Plausible
- Misinterpretation of ἐκ μέσου:
ἐκ μέσου consistently means "to be removed" or "to step aside." It refers to absence or removal, not to emergence or coming into view. - No Evidence for Emergence:
The verb γίνομαι ("to become") with ἐκ μέσου aligns with removal or cessation, as in P.Flor. 1.82.10 ("debts were removed"). It does not imply "emergence" or "appearing" from within. - Contrast with ἐν μέσῳ:
If the restrainer "emerges," he would move from obscurity to prominence, which is conceptually closer to ἐν μέσῳ ("in the midst"). However, 2 Thessalonians 2:7 explicitly uses ἐκ μέσου ("out of the midst"), which refers to removal, not appearance. - Eschatological Context:
The restrainer’s role is to hold back lawlessness (v. 6). The phrase ἕως ἐκ μέσου γένηται ("until he is removed") fits the eschatological sequence: the restrainer ceases to obstruct, allowing the lawless one to be revealed (v. 8).
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
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Re: G1096 Ginomai - meaning of the word
Which is a reason to post enough Greek that we can see the words in context.Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: ↑December 24th, 2024, 6:52 am To add to what Jonathan said --
Words get their meanings in the contexts in which they are used. On and the same word can "mean" different thing in different contexts. Even a detailed dictionary or lexicon can't exhaust all possible nuanced meanings, let alone pragmatic nuances or connotations.
This is exactly what I expanded out in my later message.Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: ↑December 24th, 2024, 6:52 amHere we can see how the preceding words directly affect the interpretation of the verb. It doesn't work alone but the words work together and affect each other's meaning. You should understand ἐκ μέσου γένηται as one phrase. It becomes quite clear that the transition, change of state, is away from middle of something. The direct near context doesn't tell exactly what that something is. It's a matter of wider exegetical interpretation (which we don't handle here).
Yes, please put the text up in Greek so we are all discussing the same thing and people don't have to look it up.Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: ↑December 24th, 2024, 6:52 amBTW, if you want to ask questions here, you should at least quote the original language, not English. I copied the words from https://www.esv.org/2+Thessalonians+2/, and there are several other ways to do the same.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/