Squinting Modifiers

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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Squinting Modifiers

Post by Jonathan Robie » August 26th, 2015, 7:05 pm

jdhadwin wrote:
Jonathan Robie wrote:Let's focus on Μακάριοι οἱ πτωχοὶ τῷ πνεύματι. What can you tell me about this part of the sentence? How are οἱ and τῷ related - how are they similar, and how are they different? What do the three words that end in οι have in common? What are the different ways that the words in this clause combine to form the two meanings you say they have?
Μακάριοι οἱ πτωχοὶ are all Nominative Plural Masculine. τῷ πνεύματι are both Dative Singular Masculine. The dative words τῷ πνεύματι tells us by what means οἱ πτωχοὶ are Μακάριοι
Very good - thanks. I agree with most of what you say.

I think Μακάριοι is an adjective, not a noun, and I think this is a "dative of respect" -- see Funk's grammar, section 892.5:
The dative of respect (or relation) is used to denote the standard or person to which the assertion is limited (cf. the accusative of specification or respect, which is sometimes the virtual equivalent of the dative of respect, §894.6).

Code: Select all

(54)	ἡμεῖς φύσει Ἰουδαῖοι	Gal 2:15
       We who are Jews by nature

Code: Select all

(55)	ἐὰν μὴ περιτιμηθῆτε τῷ ἔθει τῷ Μωϋσέως, ...	Acts 15:1
       Unless you are circumcised according to the
       custom of Moses, ...

Code: Select all

(56)	ἥμην δὲ ἀγνοούμενος τῷ προσώπῳ
       ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις τῆς Ἰουδαίας	Gal 1:22
       And I was unknown by sight to the churches
       of Judea
Example (56) provides the basis for comparing respect (τῷ προσώπῳ, by face) and relation (ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις, to the churches) : The former refers to that with respect to which the assertion holds, the latter denotes the person with respect to whom the assertion holds. Cf. Bl-D §197, Smyth §§1495, 1512, 1516.
Funk addresses this example specifically in section 703:
703. Adjective clusters with an attributive dative fall into a number of categories, depending on what the dative specifies. For convenience, noun clusters are also included here (§6990).

703.1 The dative may be a dative of respect (denoting the respect in which the attribution applies):

Code: Select all

(11)  oἱ πτωχοὶ / τῷ πνεύματι	Mt 5:3
      The poor in spirit (i.e., poor with respect to spirit)

Code: Select all

(12)  νεκροὺς [μὲν] / τῇ ἁμαρτίᾳ	Rom 6:11
      dead to sin (i.e., dead with respect to sin)
So I would tend to interpret this as an "adjective cluster with an attributive dative".

I think your question initially boils down to this: Can an attributive dative like τῷ πνεύματι depend on an adjective like Μακάριοι to form the construction μακάριοι τῷ πνεύματι or not? Frankly, I'm not sure.
jdhadwin wrote:While I am resisting exegetical commentary, I also can't help but notice that if αὐτῶν ἐστιν ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν, then they are not spiritually poor, because the βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν is spirit ;)
I think context is also a clue here. All three of the following are related, if we interpret οἱ πτωχοὶ τῷ πνεύματι as I do.

οἱ πτωχοὶ τῷ πνεύματι,
οἱ πραεῖς,
οἱ πενθοῦντες,

Here's a second grouping:

οἱ πεινῶντες καὶ διψῶντες τὴν δικαιοσύνην,
οἱ ἐλεήμονες,
οἱ καθαροὶ τῇ καρδίᾳ,
οἱ εἰρηνοποιοί,
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Re: Squinting Modifiers

Post by Jonathan Robie » August 27th, 2015, 6:26 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:I think your question initially boils down to this: Can an attributive dative like τῷ πνεύματι depend on an adjective like Μακάριοι to form the construction μακάριοι τῷ πνεύματι or not? Frankly, I'm not sure.
Actually, I'm pretty sure it can. This is a particularly good example:

Rom 6:11 νεκροὺς μὲν τῇ ἁμαρτίᾳ ζῶντας δὲ τῷ θεῷ

Here are others:

Acts 18:2 Ποντικὸν τῷ γένει
Rom 14:18 εὐάρεστος τῷ θεῷ
Rom 14:18 δόκιμος τοῖς ἀνθρώποις
Rom 14:20 κακὸν τῷ ἀνθρώπῳ
2 Cor 2:4 δυνατὰ τῷ θεῷ
Eph 5:10 δοκιμάζοντες τί ἐστιν εὐάρεστον τῷ κυρίῳ
James 2:13 ἡ γὰρ κρίσις ἀνέλεος τῷ μὴ ποιήσαντι ἔλεος
Acts 26:19 ἀπειθὴς τῇ οὐρανίῳ ὀπτασίᾳ

So yes, I do think it's ambiguous. I also think the traditional reading is most likely what was intended.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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jdhadwin
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Re: Squinting Modifiers

Post by jdhadwin » August 27th, 2015, 8:48 pm

Thanks so much for your help! Before I move back to the questions on 1 Cor 14, this little bit peaked my interest...
Jonathan Robie wrote:Here are others:

Acts 18:2 Ποντικὸν τῷ γένει
Rom 14:18 εὐάρεστος τῷ θεῷ
Rom 14:18 δόκιμος τοῖς ἀνθρώποις
Rom 14:20 κακὸν τῷ ἀνθρώπῳ
2 Cor 2:4 δυνατὰ τῷ θεῷ
Eph 5:10 δοκιμάζοντες τί ἐστιν εὐάρεστον τῷ κυρίῳ
James 2:13 ἡ γὰρ κρίσις ἀνέλεος τῷ μὴ ποιήσαντι ἔλεος
Acts 26:19 ἀπειθὴς τῇ οὐρανίῳ ὀπτασίᾳ
While looking up this list, I noticed something in this list that confused me.
ἡ γὰρ κρίσις ἀνίλεως τῷ μὴ ποιήσαντι ἔλεος καὶ κατακαυχᾶται ἔλεος κρίσεως
For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
~James 2:13
Wouldn't it be more accurate to assign the genitive to the Genitive κρίσεως to the Nominative noun ἔλεος instead of assigning it to the verb as they have. Seems like it reads more like this to me.
For judgment is merciless to one without mercy and boasts against mercy through judgment.
What do you think?

~John
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jdhadwin
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Re: Squinting Modifiers

Post by jdhadwin » August 27th, 2015, 10:00 pm

A quick question. This may help me better understand what Paul is getting at concerning γυναῖκες

If you were simply desiring to tell a person to be silent, not for contentious reasons but maybe because there is a rare bird that just landed nearby, then which of the following words would you choose to use to tell them to be silent?

A) σιγάω
B) σιγή

It appears to me that σιγάω is used concerning matters of contention.
  • 1) ἀκούσαντες δὲ ὅτι τῇ Ἑβραΐδι διαλέκτῳ προσεφώνει αὐτοῖς μᾶλλον παρέσχον ἡσυχίαν καὶ φησίν ~Acts 22:2
    2) τοῖς δὲ τοιούτοις παραγγέλλομεν καὶ παρακαλοῦμεν διὰ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστου, ἵνα μετὰ ἡσυχίας ἐργαζόμενοι τὸν ἑαυτῶν ἄρτον ἐσθίωσιν ~2nd Thessalonians 3:12
And it appears that σιγή is used concerning less contentious matters.
  • 1) ἐπιτρέψαντος δὲ αὐτοῦ ὁ Παῦλος ἑστὼς ἐπὶ τῶν ἀναβαθμῶν κατέσεισεν τῇ χειρὶ τῷ λαῷ πολλῆς δὲ σιγῆς γενομένης προσεφώνησεν τῇ Ἑβραΐδι διαλέκτῳ λέγων ~Acts 21:40
    2) Καὶ ὅτε ἤνοιξεν τὴν σφραγῖδα τὴν ἑβδόμην ἐγένετο σιγὴ ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ ὡς ἡμιώριον ~Revelation 8:1
Thanks,

~John
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Squinting Modifiers

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 28th, 2015, 12:06 am

In relation to your initial question about post-positive conjunctions, have a look at this verse...
Luke 4:39 wrote:Καὶ ἐπιστὰς ἐπάνω αὐτῆς, ἐπετίμησεν τῷ πυρετῷ, καὶ ἀφῆκεν αὐτήν· παραχρῆμα δὲ ἀναστᾶσα διηκόνει αὐτοῖς.
. Looking at it in terms of left-to-right word order the παραχρῆμα "at once" could sit with the καὶ ἀφῆκεν αὐτήν "and it left her". The post-positive preposition δὲ makes it clear though that the παραχρῆμα begins a phrase.
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(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Squinting Modifiers

Post by Jonathan Robie » August 28th, 2015, 10:37 am

jdhadwin wrote:If you were simply desiring to tell a person to be silent, not for contentious reasons but maybe because there is a rare bird that just landed nearby, then which of the following words would you choose to use to tell them to be silent?

A) σιγάω
B) σιγή
I would pick the verb, not the noun. What lexicon are you using?
jdhadwin wrote:It appears to me that σιγάω is used concerning matters of contention.
  • 1) ἀκούσαντες δὲ ὅτι τῇ Ἑβραΐδι διαλέκτῳ προσεφώνει αὐτοῖς μᾶλλον παρέσχον ἡσυχίαν καὶ φησίν ~Acts 22:2
    2) τοῖς δὲ τοιούτοις παραγγέλλομεν καὶ παρακαλοῦμεν διὰ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστου, ἵνα μετὰ ἡσυχίας ἐργαζόμενοι τὸν ἑαυτῶν ἄρτον ἐσθίωσιν ~2nd Thessalonians 3:12
And it appears that σιγή is used concerning less contentious matters.
  • 1) ἐπιτρέψαντος δὲ αὐτοῦ ὁ Παῦλος ἑστὼς ἐπὶ τῶν ἀναβαθμῶν κατέσεισεν τῇ χειρὶ τῷ λαῷ πολλῆς δὲ σιγῆς γενομένης προσεφώνησεν τῇ Ἑβραΐδι διαλέκτῳ λέγων ~Acts 21:40
    2) Καὶ ὅτε ἤνοιξεν τὴν σφραγῖδα τὴν ἑβδόμην ἐγένετο σιγὴ ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ ὡς ἡμιώριον ~Revelation 8:1
It appears to me that σιγάω is used when the writer needs a verb.

I think you would love Spicq's lexicon, but BDAG would be very helpful to you. If you need something free, Abbott-Smith is available on the Web.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Squinting Modifiers

Post by Jonathan Robie » August 28th, 2015, 10:55 am

jdhadwin wrote:While looking up this list, I noticed something in this list that confused me.
ἡ γὰρ κρίσις ἀνίλεως τῷ μὴ ποιήσαντι ἔλεος καὶ κατακαυχᾶται ἔλεος κρίσεως
For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
~James 2:13
Wouldn't it be more accurate to assign the genitive to the Genitive κρίσεως to the Nominative noun ἔλεος instead of assigning it to the verb as they have. Seems like it reads more like this to me.
For judgment is merciless to one without mercy and boasts against mercy through judgment.
If that were the intent, what case would ἔλεος have to have? For the verb κατακαυχάομαι, what case is used to indicate the thing that is being boasted against or exulted over? Your lexicon is your friend. Or you could look at all the other places this same verb is used and work out the answers.

There are only 7 instances in the NT and LXX. Write them down here. Compare them. Tell me what you learn.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

jdhadwin
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Re: Squinting Modifiers

Post by jdhadwin » August 29th, 2015, 3:04 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:In relation to your initial question about post-positive conjunctions, have a look at this verse...
Luke 4:39 wrote:Καὶ ἐπιστὰς ἐπάνω αὐτῆς, ἐπετίμησεν τῷ πυρετῷ, καὶ ἀφῆκεν αὐτήν· παραχρῆμα δὲ ἀναστᾶσα διηκόνει αὐτοῖς.
. Looking at it in terms of left-to-right word order the παραχρῆμα "at once" could sit with the καὶ ἀφῆκεν αὐτήν "and it left her". The post-positive preposition δὲ makes it clear though that the παραχρῆμα begins a phrase.
Stephen, this is a great example verse... and I don't understand how one could know one way or the other... why does the δὲ necessitate that παραχρῆμα begins the phrase? Why can't it end the previous phrase and δὲ begin the final phrase? What am I missing here?
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jdhadwin
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Re: Squinting Modifiers

Post by jdhadwin » August 29th, 2015, 3:41 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:
jdhadwin wrote:If you were simply desiring to tell a person to be silent, not for contentious reasons but maybe because there is a rare bird that just landed nearby, then which of the following words would you choose to use to tell them to be silent?

A) σιγάω
B) σιγή
I would pick the verb, not the noun. What lexicon are you using?
jdhadwin wrote:It appears to me that σιγάω is used concerning matters of contention.
  • 1) ἀκούσαντες δὲ ὅτι τῇ Ἑβραΐδι διαλέκτῳ προσεφώνει αὐτοῖς μᾶλλον παρέσχον ἡσυχίαν καὶ φησίν ~Acts 22:2
    2) τοῖς δὲ τοιούτοις παραγγέλλομεν καὶ παρακαλοῦμεν διὰ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστου, ἵνα μετὰ ἡσυχίας ἐργαζόμενοι τὸν ἑαυτῶν ἄρτον ἐσθίωσιν ~2nd Thessalonians 3:12
And it appears that σιγή is used concerning less contentious matters.
  • 1) ἐπιτρέψαντος δὲ αὐτοῦ ὁ Παῦλος ἑστὼς ἐπὶ τῶν ἀναβαθμῶν κατέσεισεν τῇ χειρὶ τῷ λαῷ πολλῆς δὲ σιγῆς γενομένης προσεφώνησεν τῇ Ἑβραΐδι διαλέκτῳ λέγων ~Acts 21:40
    2) Καὶ ὅτε ἤνοιξεν τὴν σφραγῖδα τὴν ἑβδόμην ἐγένετο σιγὴ ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ ὡς ἡμιώριον ~Revelation 8:1
It appears to me that σιγάω is used when the writer needs a verb.

I think you would love Spicq's lexicon, but BDAG would be very helpful to you. If you need something free, Abbott-Smith is available on the Web.
I dont have a lexicon, but I have a Mac and the web... I've only been using blue letter bible.

Yeah, that was a stupid question I asked. I just wasn't thinking or observing carfully enough. Thanks for your patience Jonathan.
Jonathan Robie wrote:
jdhadwin wrote:While looking up this list, I noticed something in this list that confused me.
ἡ γὰρ κρίσις ἀνίλεως τῷ μὴ ποιήσαντι ἔλεος καὶ κατακαυχᾶται ἔλεος κρίσεως
For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
~James 2:13
Wouldn't it be more accurate to assign the genitive to the Genitive κρίσεως to the Nominative noun ἔλεος instead of assigning it to the verb as they have. Seems like it reads more like this to me.
For judgment is merciless to one without mercy and boasts against mercy through judgment.
If that were the intent, what case would ἔλεος have to have? For the verb κατακαυχάομαι, what case is used to indicate the thing that is being boasted against or exulted over? Your lexicon is your friend. Or you could look at all the other places this same verb is used and work out the answers.

There are only 7 instances in the NT and LXX. Write them down here. Compare them. Tell me what you learn.
Wow, I'm confused. Would it have to be accusative because the verb refers back to κρίσις? If so, what if the verse was divided into two sentences? I'm confused. Can you please explain?

Thank you!

~John
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Squinting Modifiers

Post by Jonathan Robie » August 29th, 2015, 8:32 pm

jdhadwin wrote:I dont have a lexicon, but I have a Mac and the web... I've only been using blue letter bible.
OK, you're going to need a lexicon. The best lexicon is BDAG, if you're willing to pay ~$150 for a lexicon, there's a compact edition for ~$50.

I pointed to a free lexicon here:
Jonathan Robie wrote:If that were the intent, what case would ἔλεος have to have? For the verb κατακαυχάομαι, what case is used to indicate the thing that is being boasted against or exulted over? Your lexicon is your friend. Or you could look at all the other places this same verb is used and work out the answers.
Click on the link for the verb. It will take you to this definition:
κατα-καυχάομαι, -ῶμαι [in LXX: Za 10:12 (הָלַךְ hith.), Je 50:11 (עָלַז), Je 50:38 (הָלַל)* ;]

1. to boast against, exult over: c. gen., Ro 11:18, Ja 2:13; seq. κατά, c. gen., Ja 3:14 (T, om. κατά).
2. seq. ἐν, to glory in (Za., l.c., Je 27:38).†
[NT: 12x]
With meaning (1), the thing that is boasted against or exulted over is in the genitive, not the nominative.
Jonathan Robie wrote:Or you could look at all the other places this same verb is used and work out the answers.
Look up the New Testament passages, e.g.:

Romans 11:18 μὴ κατακαυχῶ τῶν κλάδων - what case is τῶν κλάδων?
James 2:13 κατακαυχᾶται ἔλεος κρίσεως - what case is ἔλεος? what case is κρίσεως?

Perhaps this is a better way to ask that last question ...

τίς κατακαυχᾶται τίνος; κατακαυχᾶται ἔλεος κρίσεως ἤ κατακαυχᾶται ἐλέους κρίσις;

If I made any mistakes in that, I hope someone will correct me. If not, perhaps working through that question will help you understand how cases work in Greek. What is the case of τίς? τίνος? ἔλεος? ἐλέους? κρίσις? κρίσεως? Can you puzzle out what the entire question means? Extra credit if you can write out an answer.
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