ἄχρις οὗ (Romans 11:25)

How do I work out the meaning of a Greek text? How can I best understand the forms and vocabulary in this particular text?
Forum rules
This is a beginner's forum - see the Koine Greek forum for more advanced discussion of Greek texts. Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up.

When answering questions in this forum, keep it simple, and aim your responses to the level of the person asking the question.
Post Reply
Danny King
Posts: 35
Joined: May 22nd, 2015, 4:52 am

ἄχρις οὗ (Romans 11:25)

Post by Danny King » September 9th, 2015, 11:37 am

Οὐ γὰρ θέλω ὑμᾶς ἀγνοεῖν, ἀδελφοί, τὸ μυστήριον τοῦτο, ἵνα μὴ ἦτε παρ' ἑαυτοῖς φρόνιμοι, ὅτι πώρωσις ἀπὸ μέρους τῷ Ἰσραὴλ γέγονεν ἄχρις οὗ τὸ πλήρωμα τῶν ἐθνῶν εἰσέλθῃ (Romans 11:25)

What is the significance of οὗ? I'm pretty sure it's not the adverb "where" but the genitive of the relative pronoun. But why is a relative pronoun needed there? And what is the antecedent?
0 x



Stirling Bartholomew
Posts: 1091
Joined: August 9th, 2012, 4:19 pm

Re: ἄχρις οὗ (Romans 11:25)

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » September 9th, 2015, 3:01 pm

The adverb combined with the relative forms a "unit" which can be thought of as an idiom. Louw & Nida are the best when it comes to "units" like ἄχρις οὗ

There are two relevant domains:

67.139 ὡςe; ὅτεb; ὅτανd; ἕωςb or ἕως ὅτουb or ἕως οὗb; ἐν ᾧ; ὅσοςd, η, ον; ἄχρις οὗb: an extent of time of the same length as another extent or unit of time — ‘as long as, while.’

I suspect that 67.119 is the best fit for Rom 11:25.

67.119 ἕωςa or ἕως ὅτουa or ἕως οὗa; ἄχριa or ἄχρις οὗa or ἄχρι οὗb; μέχριa or μέχρις οὗ; εἰςq: the continuous extent of time up to a point — ‘until, to, at last, at length.’16

and see the footnote:

16 ἕως, ἄχρι, and μέχρι frequently occur with a postposed marker of indefinite temporal reference: οὗ, occurring with all three markers, and ὅτου with ἕως.
0 x
C. Stirling Bartholomew

Danny King
Posts: 35
Joined: May 22nd, 2015, 4:52 am

Re: ἄχρις οὗ (Romans 11:25)

Post by Danny King » September 10th, 2015, 12:33 pm

Thank you, Stirling, but are those letters (a, b, d, q) behind the Greek words footnote markings?
0 x

Stirling Bartholomew
Posts: 1091
Joined: August 9th, 2012, 4:19 pm

Re: ἄχρις οὗ (Romans 11:25)

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » September 10th, 2015, 2:16 pm

Danny King wrote:Thank you, Stirling, but are those letters (a, b, d, q) behind the Greek words footnote markings?
In Louw & Nida the letters after a word are assigned to different meanings (sub-domains) so the reader can keep the meanings sorted out when looking at the NT citations.


67.139 ὡςe; ὅτεb; ὅτανd; ἕωςb or ἕως ὅτουb or ἕως οὗb; ἐν ᾧ; ὅσοςd, η, ον; ἄχρις οὗb: an extent of time of the same length as another extent or unit of time — ‘as long as, while.’
ὡςe: περιπατεῖτε ὡς τὸ φῶς ἔχετε ‘as long as you have the light, live your lives’ Jn 12:35.
Notice ὡςe links the definition with the citation and indicates that their are several other domains for ὡς.

Generally, this is more important for using print version of Louw & Nida than it is for the e-version. However, in complex sub-domains like 67.139 it is important in both.
0 x
C. Stirling Bartholomew

Danny King
Posts: 35
Joined: May 22nd, 2015, 4:52 am

Re: ἄχρις οὗ (Romans 11:25)

Post by Danny King » September 10th, 2015, 3:33 pm

The print version is even more expensive than BDAG! :roll: Is there a free version available? I can find 67.119 and 67.139 on the internet but can't get further than a listing of the words and their meanings, as below.

Word Gloss Section
ἄχρις (ἄχρις οὗ) until 67.119
οὗ (ἄχρις οὗ) until 67.119
ἄχρις (ἄχρις οὗ) as long as 67.139
οὗ (ἄχρις οὗ) as long as 67.139
0 x

Stirling Bartholomew
Posts: 1091
Joined: August 9th, 2012, 4:19 pm

Re: ἄχρις οὗ (Romans 11:25)

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » September 10th, 2015, 4:44 pm

Danny King wrote:The print version is even more expensive than BDAG! :roll: Is there a free version available? I can find 67.119 and 67.139 on the internet but can't get further than a listing of the words and their meanings, as below.

Word Gloss Section
ἄχρις (ἄχρις οὗ) until 67.119
οὗ (ἄχρις οὗ) until 67.119
ἄχρις (ἄχρις οὗ) as long as 67.139
οὗ (ἄχρις οὗ) as long as 67.139
Is this from laparola? http://www.laparola.net/greco/parola.php?p=ἄχρι

There was some talk a decade ago about a new Lexicon for the NT using a similar theoretical model to the HEBREW SDBH. http://www.sdbh.org/dictionary/main.php?language=en

I suspect (don't know) the complete e-version of L&N is bundled with the standard bible software packages, eg. Bibleworks.
0 x
C. Stirling Bartholomew

Danny King
Posts: 35
Joined: May 22nd, 2015, 4:52 am

Re: ἄχρις οὗ (Romans 11:25)

Post by Danny King » September 12th, 2015, 8:07 am

Took me some time to digest all the information you offered, Stirling. Since I have no hope of getting the Louw & Nida set myself, I have copied the details to the inside back cover of my UBS4. Thank you very much for taking the time to teach me. :D
0 x

Stirling Bartholomew
Posts: 1091
Joined: August 9th, 2012, 4:19 pm

Re: ἄχρις οὗ (Romans 11:25)

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » September 13th, 2015, 4:36 pm

Danny King wrote:Took me some time to digest all the information you offered, Stirling.
Perhaps H. W. Smyth will be easier to digest:
2383. Temporal clauses are introduced by conjunctions or relative expressions having the force of conjunctions
A. Denoting time usually the same as that of the principal verb:
ὅτε, ὁπότε, ἡνίκα, ὁπηνίκα when; ὁσάκις as often as; ἕως, μέχρι (rarely ἄχρι), ὅσον χρόνον so long as; ἕως, ἐν ᾧ (rarely ἐν ὅσῳ and ἔστε) while.
N. 1.—ἕως means so long as in reference to actions that are coëxtensive; while, in reference to actions not coëxtensive.
N. 2.—ἡνίκα, ὁπηνίκα have the force of what time, at the moment when, when, (rarely while), and are more precise than ὅτε.
N. 3.—Poetic or Ionic are εὖτε (= ὅτε) when, ἦμος (only with the indicative) when, ὅπως when (ὅκως in Hdt. of antecedent action), ὄφρα so long as. Hom. has εἷος (i.e. ἧος) or εἵως for ἕως.
N. 4.—ἔστε is used (rarely) in lyric, Sophocles, Euripides, Herodotus, Xenophon.
B. Denoting time usually prior to that of the principal verb:
ἐπεί, ἐπειδή after, after that (less exactly when); ἐπεὶ πρῶτον, ὡς (or ἐπεὶ) τάχιστα, ἐπειδὴ τάχιστα (rarely ὅπως τάχιστα) as soon as; ἐξ οὗ (rarely ἐξ ὧν), ἐξ ὅτου, ἀφ᾽ οὗ since, ever since; ὡς when, as soon as, since.
N.—ἐπείτε after is very common in Herodotus.]
C. Denoting time subsequent to that of the principal verb:
ἕως, ἔστε, μέχρι, μέχρι οὗ (rarely ἄχρι), ἄχρι οὗ until: followed by a finite verb.
πρίν, πρότερον ἤ before, until: followed by a finite verb or by an infinitive.
N.—Homer has also ὄφρα (also final), εἰς ὅτε (κε), εἰς ὅ (κε). Herodotus has ἐς ὅ, ἕως οὗ, ἐς οὗ until. ὁππότε with the optative in Homer after a past tense of a verb of waiting or expecting means for the time when (H 414). ἔστε (first in Hesiod) is rare in lyric, tragedy, Herodotus, and Plato, very common in Xenophon.—μέχρι is avoided by the orators.—μέχρι and ἄχρι take the articular infinitive in Demosthenes.—τέως for ἕως is rare (2171).
A minute quibble about the meta-language:
Girmm-Thayer, BAGD/BDAG, LSJ, Smyth, BDF, Turner, ATR, … all say something like μέχρι (οὗ), ἄχρι (οὗ) may function may as a conjunction. Guy Cooper (Attic Syntax, vol. 2, p1284, §69.13.0.d, also vol. 1, p758, 54.16.0-1) has subordinating adverb in one place and a subordinating conjunction (adverb) in another place. Louw & Nida don't use the word conjunction in their treatment of ἕωςa or ἕως ὅτουa or ἕως οὗa; ἄχριa or ἄχρις οὗa or ἄχρι οὗb; μέχριa or μέχρις οὗ; εἰςq.
0 x
C. Stirling Bartholomew

Danny King
Posts: 35
Joined: May 22nd, 2015, 4:52 am

Re: ἄχρις οὗ (Romans 11:25)

Post by Danny King » September 14th, 2015, 12:31 pm

No, I think I like Louw & Nida better or at least I do now as I have completely absorbed the earlier info. And quoting all those Greek writers in Smyth is just plain intimidating! :lol:

I did wonder in your very first reply why you identified ἄχρι and ἕως as adverbs. I think of them as conjunctions or, even better, prepositions. After all, they govern the cases of their objects and adverbs and conjunctions don't do that.
0 x

Stirling Bartholomew
Posts: 1091
Joined: August 9th, 2012, 4:19 pm

Re: ἄχρις οὗ (Romans 11:25)

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » September 14th, 2015, 3:44 pm

Danny King wrote:
I did wonder in your very first reply why you identified ἄχρι and ἕως as adverbs. I think of them as conjunctions or, even better, prepositions. After all, they govern the cases of their objects and adverbs and conjunctions don't do that.
The old grammars are all over the place in regard to the meta-language:

Here I quote from Burton Moods and Tenses 1898.
IV. RELATIVE CLAUSES INTRODUCED BY
WORDS MEANING UNTIL, WHILE, AND BEFORE.

321. ἕως is properly a relative adverb which marks one action as the temporal limit of another action. It does this in two ways, either (a) so that the beginning or simple occurrence of the action of the verb introduced by ἕως is the limit of the action denoted by the principal verb, or (b) so that the continuance of the former is the limit of the latter. In the former case ἕως means until, in the latter, while, as long as.

The whole discussion in Burton is found here: http://www.dabar.org/burtonmoodstenses/ ... efore.html
ἄχρις οὗ (Rom. 11:25, etc.) can be regarded strictly as prepositonal = ἄχρις ἐκείνου χρόνου ἐν ᾧ
C. F. D. Moule, 1953, p82 §7
0 x
C. Stirling Bartholomew

Post Reply

Return to “What does this text mean?”