Matt 7:2 - relative pronouns

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David Lim
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Matt 7:2 - relative pronouns

Post by David Lim » July 10th, 2011, 9:43 pm

[Matt 7] [1] μη κρινετε ινα μη κριθητε [2] εν ω γαρ κριματι κρινετε κριθησεσθε και εν ω μετρω μετρειτε μετρηθησεται υμιν
When I read this I was wondering whether "ω" can really function as a determiner, as I remember most translations suggest: "by what judgement you judge" and "by what measure you measure". Do the relative pronouns here truly modify the nouns after it, or does the original actually mean "[1] do not judge so that you might not be judged, [2] for by that which you judge [in] [a] judgement, you will be judged, and by that which you measure [in] [a] measure, [it] will be measured to you." where "κριματι" and "μετρω" are taken to modify the corresponding verbs for the sake of emphasis?
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: Matt 7:2 - relative pronouns

Post by Stephen Carlson » July 10th, 2011, 11:20 pm

BDF § 294(5) briefly discusses this feature of Matt 7:2 as a case of "incorporation of the antecedent into the relative clause."

Basically, κρίματι and μέτρῳ are the respective antecedents of ᾧ and were incorporated into the relative clause (losing its article). So you can take Matt 7:2 as if it had said: κριθήσεσθε γὰρ (τῲ) κρίνατι ἐν ᾧ κρίνετε, καὶ μετρηθήσεται ὑμῖν (τῲ) μέτρῳ ἐν ᾧ μετρεῖτε. However, classical usage seems to disparage the incorporated antecedent coming right after the relative pronoun.

On this particular verse, Funk favorably cites Winer-Schmiedel § 24,3b (p. 224), who assert that, in addition to incorporation, ἐν ᾧ μέτρῳ can also be thought of as corresponding to the fuller ἐν τούτῳ τῷ μέτρῳ (ᾧ), but I don't quite follow the reasoning.

Stephen
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David Lim
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Re: Matt 7:2 - relative pronouns

Post by David Lim » July 11th, 2011, 9:49 am

sccarlson wrote:BDF § 294(5) briefly discusses this feature of Matt 7:2 as a case of "incorporation of the antecedent into the relative clause."

Basically, κρίματι and μέτρῳ are the respective antecedents of ᾧ and were incorporated into the relative clause (losing its article). So you can take Matt 7:2 as if it had said: κριθήσεσθε γὰρ (τῲ) κρίνατι ἐν ᾧ κρίνετε, καὶ μετρηθήσεται ὑμῖν (τῲ) μέτρῳ ἐν ᾧ μετρεῖτε. However, classical usage seems to disparage the incorporated antecedent coming right after the relative pronoun.

On this particular verse, Funk favorably cites Winer-Schmiedel § 24,3b (p. 224), who assert that, in addition to incorporation, ἐν ᾧ μέτρῳ can also be thought of as corresponding to the fuller ἐν τούτῳ τῷ μέτρῳ (ᾧ), but I don't quite follow the reasoning.
I see. Are there other examples in the new testament of incorporation of the antecedent into the relative clause? Also can you please point me to where this verse is mentioned in Funk's Grammar, as I could not find it at http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/project/f ... pre-alpha/? Thanks! :)
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Re: Matt 7:2 - relative pronouns

Post by Stephen Carlson » July 11th, 2011, 2:09 pm

David Lim wrote:
sccarlson wrote:BDF § 294(5) briefly discusses this feature of Matt 7:2 as a case of "incorporation of the antecedent into the relative clause."
I see. Are there other examples in the new testament of incorporation of the antecedent into the relative clause? Also can you please point me to where this verse is mentioned in Funk's Grammar, as I could not find it at http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/project/f ... pre-alpha/? Thanks! :)
Oh, I wasn't referring to Funk's Beginning grammar, which is what you link goes to, but to Blass-Debrunner-Funk, an intermediate grammar. At the cited section, § 294(5), several examples are listed. (I'm away from my desk right now.)

Stephen
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Re: Matt 7:2 - relative pronouns

Post by cwconrad » July 11th, 2011, 4:59 pm

sccarlson wrote:
David Lim wrote:
sccarlson wrote:BDF § 294(5) briefly discusses this feature of Matt 7:2 as a case of "incorporation of the antecedent into the relative clause."
I see. Are there other examples in the new testament of incorporation of the antecedent into the relative clause? Also can you please point me to where this verse is mentioned in Funk's Grammar, as I could not find it at http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/project/f ... pre-alpha/? Thanks! :)
Oh, I wasn't referring to Funk's Beginning grammar, which is what you link goes to, but to Blass-Debrunner-Funk, an intermediate grammar. At the cited section, § 294(5), several examples are listed. (I'm away from my desk right now.)

Stephen
Funk's BIGHG is not a reference grammar but a textbook. Blass-Debrunner-Funk is the standard reference grammar for Biblical Greek, but it's not available as a free online reference. The best free online reference grammar is Smyth, which we cite around here right and left.
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

David Lim
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Re: Matt 7:2 - relative pronouns

Post by David Lim » July 14th, 2011, 8:31 pm

David Lim wrote:
sccarlson wrote:BDF § 294(5) briefly discusses this feature of Matt 7:2 as a case of "incorporation of the antecedent into the relative clause."

Basically, κρίματι and μέτρῳ are the respective antecedents of ᾧ and were incorporated into the relative clause (losing its article). So you can take Matt 7:2 as if it had said: κριθήσεσθε γὰρ (τῲ) κρίνατι ἐν ᾧ κρίνετε, καὶ μετρηθήσεται ὑμῖν (τῲ) μέτρῳ ἐν ᾧ μετρεῖτε. However, classical usage seems to disparage the incorporated antecedent coming right after the relative pronoun.

On this particular verse, Funk favorably cites Winer-Schmiedel § 24,3b (p. 224), who assert that, in addition to incorporation, ἐν ᾧ μέτρῳ can also be thought of as corresponding to the fuller ἐν τούτῳ τῷ μέτρῳ (ᾧ), but I don't quite follow the reasoning.
I see. Are there other examples in the new testament of incorporation of the antecedent into the relative clause?
I found one when reading today:
[John 6:14] οι ουν ανθρωποι ιδοντες ο εποιησεν σημειον ο ιησους ελεγον οτι ουτος εστιν αληθως ο προφητης ο ερχομενος εις τον κοσμον
"ο εποιησεν σημειον ο ιησους" would be an equivalent to "το σημειον ο εποιησεν ο ιησους" right? Maybe Funk is suggesting that the construction in Matt 7:2 is placing a lot of emphasis on "τω μετρω", almost like "τουτω τω μετρω"?
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Re: Matt 7:2 - relative pronouns

Post by Stephen Carlson » July 14th, 2011, 10:21 pm

David Lim wrote:I found one when reading today:
[John 6:14] οι ουν ανθρωποι ιδοντες ο εποιησεν σημειον ο ιησους ελεγον οτι ουτος εστιν αληθως ο προφητης ο ερχομενος εις τον κοσμον
"ο εποιησεν σημειον ο ιησους" would be an equivalent to "το σημειον ο εποιησεν ο ιησους" right?
Yes, indeed, that's one of Funk's examples. Others that he lists include: Luke 24:1, John 17:3 Phlm 10ff., John 16:8 Rom 7:19 Heb 7:14 Acts 7:20 26:6 Heb 10:10 1 Pet 1:12 Rev 9:23ff.
David Lim wrote:Maybe Funk is suggesting that the construction in Matt 7:2 is placing a lot of emphasis on "τω μετρω", almost like "τουτω τω μετρω"?
Well, I don't quite understand what he's suggesting; he doesn't really mention emphasis. He (along with Winer-Schmiedel) seems to be concerned that, unlike John 6:14, the incorporated antecedent in Matt 7:2 immediately follows the relative pronoun.

Stephen
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Re: Matt 7:2 - relative pronouns

Post by cwconrad » July 15th, 2011, 7:29 am

sccarlson wrote:
David Lim wrote:I found one when reading today:
[John 6:14] οι ουν ανθρωποι ιδοντες ο εποιησεν σημειον ο ιησους ελεγον οτι ουτος εστιν αληθως ο προφητης ο ερχομενος εις τον κοσμον
"ο εποιησεν σημειον ο ιησους" would be an equivalent to "το σημειον ο εποιησεν ο ιησους" right?
Yes, indeed, that's one of Funk's examples. Others that he lists include: Luke 24:1, John 17:3 Phlm 10ff., John 16:8 Rom 7:19 Heb 7:14 Acts 7:20 26:6 Heb 10:10 1 Pet 1:12 Rev 9:23ff.
David Lim wrote:Maybe Funk is suggesting that the construction in Matt 7:2 is placing a lot of emphasis on "τω μετρω", almost like "τουτω τω μετρω"?
Well, I don't quite understand what he's suggesting; he doesn't really mention emphasis. He (along with Winer-Schmiedel) seems to be concerned that, unlike John 6:14, the incorporated antecedent in Matt 7:2 immediately follows the relative pronoun.

Stephen
I think there are two different items of concern here. One is the attraction of the antecedent into the relative clause -- that's not at all uncommon, and I really don't think there's any emphasis involved in it (nor do I think that BDF suggests that there is). I think this is a fairly common usage in Koine Greek and I've also seen it frequently in Latin of the same period. The other item is the structuring of the two parallel clauses -- the relative clause and the corresponding demonstrative clause. This certainly is a rhetorical or discourse device. Steve Runge discusses it in his Discourse Grammar of the NT p. 233 under the rubric, 11.2 Comparative Frames -- and he discusses Matthew 7:2 specifically here.
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

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