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1 Cor. 11:12 and Col. 1:16

Posted: July 10th, 2011, 10:22 pm
by Mike Burke Deactivated
Does 1 CCor. 11:12 clearly say that "all things" are of God (including all men and women), or could it be taken to mean that all men and woment are of God?

wsper gar h gunh ek tou androv, outwv kai o anhr dia thv gunaikov; ta de panta ek tou qeou.

Also, does Col. 1:16 mean "all things" (including thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers), or all thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers?

oti en autw ektisqh ta panta en toiv ouranoiv kai epi thv ghv, ta orata kai ta aorata, eite qronoi eite kuriothtev eite arxai eite ecousiai; ta panta di' autou kai eiv auton ektistai,

I've been in some discussions with those who question creation ex-nihilo, and I'm interested in how all inclussive the language here actually is.

Could "all things" be legitimately said to be limited by the context of men and woman (in 1 Cor. 11:12), or thrones, dominions, etc, (in Col. 1:16)?

Re: 1 Cor. 11:12 and Col. 1:16

Posted: July 11th, 2011, 12:25 am
by jeffreyrequadt
I just wanted to put the Unicode Greek in:
Mike Burke wrote:Does 1 CCor. 11:12 clearly say that "all things" are of God (including all men and women), or could it be taken to mean that all men and woment are of God?
1 Corinthians 11:12: ὥσπερ γὰρ ἡ γυνὴ ἐκ τοῦ ἀνδρός, οὕτως καὶ ὁ ἀνὴρ διὰ τῆς γυναικός· τὰ δὲ πάντα ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ.
Mike Burke wrote:Also, does Col. 1:16 mean "all things" (including thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers), or all thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers?
Colossians 1:16: ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, τὰ ὁρατὰ καὶ τὰ ἀόρατα, εἴτε θρόνοι εἴτε κυριότητες εἴτε ἀρχαὶ εἴτε ἐξουσίαι· τὰ πάντα διʼ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν ἔκτισται·
Mike Burke wrote:I've been in some discussions with those who question creation ex-nihilo, and I'm interested in how all inclussive the language here actually is.

Could "all things" be legitimately said to be limited by the context of men and woman (in 1 Cor. 11:12), or thrones, dominions, etc, (in Col. 1:16)?

Re: 1 Cor. 11:12 and Col. 1:16

Posted: July 11th, 2011, 12:46 am
by Mike Burke Deactivated
Thank you.

I'm a novice here, I'm not familiar with unicode, and some of my questions will probably appear stupid.

I apologize for that--but in a passage like Col. 1:16, is there any way to tell whether what follows τὰ πάντα is a subset of "all things,"" or a definition of the kinds of things in view?

And in the case of 1 Cor. 11:12, would "all things" be limited by the context of the proceeding subjects (men and woman), or would men and women be a subset of "all things"?

Re: 1 Cor. 11:12 and Col. 1:16

Posted: July 11th, 2011, 8:09 am
by Barry Hofstetter
Mike Burke wrote:Thank you.

I'm a novice here, I'm not familiar with unicode, and some of my questions will probably appear stupid.

I apologize for that--but in a passage like Col. 1:16, is there any way to tell whether what follows τὰ πάντα is a subset of "all things,"" or a definition of the kinds of things in view?

And in the case of 1 Cor. 11:12, would "all things" be limited by the context of the proceeding subjects (men and woman), or would men and women be a subset of "all things"?
We actually have a forum which relates to this:

http://www-test.ibiblio.org/bgreek/foru ... m.php?f=27

On things unicode in general:

http://www.ntresources.com/unicode.htm

Now, to answer your question, it's more a matter of context than anything else. in Col 1:16, τὰ πᾶντα is modified by ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, τὰ ὁρατὰ καὶ τὰ ἀόρατα, which sounds pretty inclusive to me. εἴτε θρόνοι κ.τ.λ. then becomes a specific application. In 1 Cor 11:12, it could be argued that Paul is adducing a general principle to support his statements, so that τὰ πάντα would be comprehensive.

Re: 1 Cor. 11:12 and Col. 1:16

Posted: July 11th, 2011, 8:23 am
by Jonathan Robie
Mike Burke wrote:Thank you.

I'm a novice here, I'm not familiar with unicode, and some of my questions will probably appear stupid.
Unicode is the character set used to represent Greek on computers. It would be helpful if you could use quotes that actually look like Greek. You can use http://www.laparola.net/greco/, for instance.
Mike Burke wrote:I apologize for that--but in a passage like Col. 1:16, is there any way to tell whether what follows τὰ πάντα is a subset of "all things,"" or a definition of the kinds of things in view?

And in the case of 1 Cor. 11:12, would "all things" be limited by the context of the proceeding subjects (men and woman), or would men and women be a subset of "all things"?
First off: how well do you understand the Greek sentences here, are you confident that you have grasped the grammatical structures in them? In the beginner's forum, our job is not to settle theological disputes, but to help people learn Greek.

I agree with Barry that it's more a question of context than anything else. In 1 Cor 11:12, I wonder if τὰ πάντα is used for all things created in the same way it is in Genesis 1:31:
καὶ εἶδεν ὁ θεὸς τὰ πάντα ὅσα ἐποίησεν
καὶ ἰδοὺ καλὰ λίαν
καὶ ἐγένετο ἑσπέρα καὶ ἐγένετο πρωί
ἡμέρα ἕκτη

Re: 1 Cor. 11:12 and Col. 1:16

Posted: August 3rd, 2011, 8:56 pm
by Mike Burke Deactivated
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
Mike Burke wrote:...in a passage like Col. 1:16, is there any way to tell whether what follows τὰ πάντα is a subset of "all things,"" or a definition of the kinds of things in view?

And in the case of 1 Cor. 11:12, would "all things" be limited by the context of the proceeding subjects (men and woman), or would men and women be a subset of "all things"?
...Now, to answer your question, it's more a matter of context than anything else. in Col 1:16, τὰ πᾶντα is modified by ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, τὰ ὁρατὰ καὶ τὰ ἀόρατα, which sounds pretty inclusive to me. εἴτε θρόνοι κ.τ.λ. then becomes a specific application. In 1 Cor 11:12, it could be argued that Paul is adducing a general principle to support his statements, so that τὰ πάντα would be comprehensive.
Thank you.