Romans 4:17 kaqwv gegraptai oti Patera pollwn eqnwn teqeika katenanti ou episteusen qeou tou zwopoiountov touv nekrouv kai kalountov ta mh onta wv onta;
Which is a better translation?
"God, who calls things that are not as though they were"--or "God, who calls things that are not into being"?
Romans 4:17
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Re: Romans 4:17
B-Greek isn't about choosing among translations, it's about understanding the Greek.
It's a little hard to read the text you cited, the transliteration scheme turns "s" into "n".
Here's the text in Greek:
καθὼς γέγραπται ὅτι Πατέρα πολλῶν ἐθνῶν τέθεικά σε, κατέναντι οὗ ἐπίστευσεν θεοῦ τοῦ ζῳοποιοῦντος τοὺς νεκροὺς καὶ καλοῦντος τὰ μὴ ὄντα ὡς ὄντα·
I'm not sure how much Greek you know. Do the phrases τὰ μὴ ὄντα and ὡς ὄντα make sense to you?
It's a little hard to read the text you cited, the transliteration scheme turns "s" into "n".
Here's the text in Greek:
καθὼς γέγραπται ὅτι Πατέρα πολλῶν ἐθνῶν τέθεικά σε, κατέναντι οὗ ἐπίστευσεν θεοῦ τοῦ ζῳοποιοῦντος τοὺς νεκροὺς καὶ καλοῦντος τὰ μὴ ὄντα ὡς ὄντα·
I'm not sure how much Greek you know. Do the phrases τὰ μὴ ὄντα and ὡς ὄντα make sense to you?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
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Re: Romans 4:17
Not really.I'm not sure how much Greek you know. Do the phrases τὰ μὴ ὄντα and ὡς ὄντα make sense to you?Jonathan Robie
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What does it mean?
What I'd really like to know is if the text is saying that God calls non-existent things into being?
I've seen some modern translations render it that way, but is that more of a paraphrase (and is it justified by the text)?
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Re: Romans 4:17
This is a fairly complex sentence for a beginner, let me try ...Mike Burke wrote:Not really.Jonathan Robie wrote:I'm not sure how much Greek you know. Do the phrases τὰ μὴ ὄντα and ὡς ὄντα make sense to you?
What does it mean?
τὰ ὄντα = the things that are.
τὰ μὴ ὄντα = the things that are not
ὡς ὄντα = roughly, "as things that are"
καλοῦντος is a participle derived from καλέω ...
http://www.laparola.net/greco/parola.ph ... D%B3%CF%89
Code: Select all
Louw-Nida
Gloss Section
a name 33.129
b call 33.131
c summon 33.307
d call to a task 33.312
e invite 33.315
I think that's a reasonable interpretation of the text. If I call a dog that doesn't exist, then I'm a clown if the dog doesn't come, or a miracle worker if the dog does come. If God summons things that do not exist, then they can only answer that summons by first coming into existence. That's how I would understand it.Mike Burke wrote:What I'd really like to know is if the text is saying that God calls non-existent things into being?
I've seen some modern translations render it that way, but is that more of a paraphrase (and is it justified by the text)?
A more wooden translation would be "calls things that are not as things that are". But what does that mean? I think it's like calling a dog that doesn't exist as though it did - and it implies that the dog actually comes. The reason translation is also called interpretation is that it's not possible to do it without interpreting the text.
Incidentally, what are you doing to learn Greek? I don't know if you are aware of this policy, we do want to keep the focus on the Greek text rather than theology, and we'll nudge you toward working on your own ability to read Greek:
Jonathan Robie wrote:B-Greek is about Greek texts and the Greek language, and most of the forums in B-Greek require a working knowledge of Biblical Greek; that is:
In the Beginner's Forum, we welcome beginners who do not yet have a working knowledge of Biblical Greek, and are working to learn the language. We want to help. Even basic questions about the meaning of the Greek text are welcome in the Beginner's Forum, and there's no shame in mistakes. Beginners will be gently pushed toward learning these structures over time, pointed to textbooks and other aids that will help them, and coached in how to see these structures in a text. Learning a language is all about learning the structure signals, so we will try to help you learn what these signals are and how to recognize them in a text.
- recognition of inflected forms of verbs, nouns, pronouns, adjectives, and adverbs
- recognition of standard syntactic structures
- a grasp of principal parts of common irregular verbs, and the ability to recognize them in a text
Even in the Beginner's forum, general questions or opinions about doctrine or the meaning of the English text are not welcome.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/