Numbers 21:13

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Lee Magee
Posts: 9
Joined: September 20th, 2017, 12:04 pm
Location: Wales , UK

Numbers 21:13

Post by Lee Magee » September 20th, 2017, 12:43 pm

This verse as issues in both Hebrew and Greek, the KJV reads 'Red Sea' in this verse, yet
in Sea (Yam/θάλασσα ) , the Septuagint writes 'Ζωοβ ἐφλόγισεν ' and the Masoretic
as a unknown word ' וָהֵב Vaheb'

διὰ τοῦτο λέγεται ἐν βιβλίῳ πόλεμος τοῦ κυρίου τὴν Ζωοβ ἐφλόγισεν καὶ τοὺς χειμάρρους Αρνων
καὶ τοὺς χειμάρρους κατέστησεν κατοικίσαι Ηρ καὶ πρόσκειται τοῖς ὁρίοις Μωαβ
καὶ ἐκεῖθεν τὸ φρέαρ τοῦτό ἐστιν τὸ φρέαρ ὃ εἶπεν κύριος πρὸς Μωυσῆν συνάγαγε τὸν λαόν καὶ δώσω αὐτοῖς ὕδωρ πιεῖν


Here is a my rough translation

Through this it's called in the strip of war of the Kurios of what he did too 'Zoob Ephlogisen'
and the winter-torrents of Arnon and these winter-torrents set down and settled down in
the Spring and he placed them in the boundary of Moab, from that place into the wells
and in that well, Kurios said too Mousen , bring together the people have give them the water
to drink.


Ζωοβ ἐφλόγισεν

I am not ure on this meaning of this yet, but i do know
that ἐφλόγισεν contains the element 'φλόξ' ( Flame) or 'φλογίς' ( Broiled )

Contextually, i assume ' Burnt the Zoob in the winter torrents ' , If they context
is winter-torrent, 'χειμάρρους' ( Melted snow) they it's something to do with
burning/melting snow.

Ζωοβ this words needs more study.
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Lee Magee
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Joined: September 20th, 2017, 12:04 pm
Location: Wales , UK

Re: Numbers 21:13

Post by Lee Magee » September 20th, 2017, 3:55 pm

I have put more through into my translation , my theory is that וָהֵב Vaheb is a textural corruption of זָהָב Zahab, for that word is very close too 'Ζωοβ .

'Chariot' of gold broiled the winter torrents
/ context / they melted down and trickled down into the wells and springs

I hypothetically derive the word Chariot from κυρίου because in Hebrew that name sounds like ker·üv כְּרוּב that contextually interchanges with רְכוּב rek·üv' 'Chariot '

τοῦ (The) κυρίου (Chariot) τὴν(of ) Ζωοβ (Gold ) ἐφλόγισεν ( burnt / broiled ) the 'winter torrent '
of Arnon.

Arnon is a winter-torrent of Mount Hermon / Deu 3:8/ , today it is a popular
ski resort , so the Gk ,χειμάρρους fits contextually and geographically, I try to
produce as many different possible translations of that verse as i can.

Then one problem that needs to be solved is why χειμάρρους in the Hebrew
is נַחַל nakhal .


I
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Lee Magee
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Joined: September 20th, 2017, 12:04 pm
Location: Wales , UK

Re: Numbers 21:13

Post by Lee Magee » September 20th, 2017, 11:10 pm

'χειμάρρους

I have solved the reasoning why נַחַל ( Nakhal ) means winter-torrents, because it's cognate with the Greek νεφέλη, because Phi interchanges with Qoph E.g ' Ippos / Ikkos ' .

νέφος 'mass of clouds '
νίφα 'snow
νιφάς 'snowflake
נָפַח 'bloweth
נָפַל ' fall down
נֶפֶץ ' storm
χάλαζα 'hail storm
Glacies ' Ice
πάγος ' Ice
גלידא ' Ice
תְּלַג ' snow
שֶׁלֶג ' snow

Where ever Nakhal appears in the Hebrew, the Septuagint renders it χειμάρρους

e.g
Judges 5:21 χειμάρρους Κισων ( קִישׁוֹן )
Κισων interchanges with Φισων (פִּישׁוֹן) * Gen 2:11

John 18:1
χειμάῤῥου τῶν Κεδρὼν

1 kings 2:37
χειμάρρουν Κεδρων
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Wes Wood
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Re: Numbers 21:13

Post by Wes Wood » September 20th, 2017, 11:32 pm

This is how I would translate the passage you posted:
διὰ τοῦτο λέγεται ἐν βιβλίῳ πόλεμος τοῦ κυρίου τὴν Ζωοβ ἐφλόγισεν καὶ τοὺς χειμάρρους Αρνων καὶ τοὺς χειμάρρους κατέστησεν κατοικίσαι Ηρ καὶ πρόσκειται τοῖς ὁρίοις Μωαβ καὶ ἐκεῖθεν τὸ φρέαρ τοῦτό ἐστιν τὸ φρέαρ ὃ εἶπεν κύριος πρὸς Μωυσῆν συνάγαγε τὸν λαόν καὶ δώσω αὐτοῖς ὕδωρ πιεῖν

For this reason it says in a book a war of the Lord set Zoob on fire, and the winter streams of Arnon [as well], and he established the winter streams to settle Er, and it lies by the boundaries of Moab. And the well [is] from there. This is the well about which [the] Lord told Moses, “Gather the people and I will give them water to drink.”
I believe some parts of this passage would make better sense to me with more context, but this is how I understand what is there. You will get more out of your work if you focus on learning Greek grammar as the key to understanding the Greek without appealing to outside sources. Best of luck to you as you continue your studies.
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Lee Magee
Posts: 9
Joined: September 20th, 2017, 12:04 pm
Location: Wales , UK

Re: Numbers 21:13

Post by Lee Magee » September 20th, 2017, 11:44 pm

Job 37:22
ἀπὸ βορρᾶ νέφη χρυσαυγοῦντα ἐπὶ τούτοις μεγάλη ἡ δόξα καὶ τιμὴ παντοκράτορος

In the Hebrew of this verse 'זָהָב' ( Zoob ) 'fair weather ' in the Greek is νέφη , that
is similar too νίφα ' meaning Snow

' the Lord set the Snow on fire '

Mic 1:4
καὶ σαλευθήσεται τὰ ὄρη ὑποκάτωθεν αὐτοῦ καὶ αἱ κοιλάδες τακήσονται ὡς κηρὸς ἀπὸ προσώπου πυρὸς καὶ ὡς ὕδωρ καταφερόμενον ἐν καταβάσει
(Masoretic) And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place
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Lee Magee
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Location: Wales , UK

Re: Numbers 21:13

Post by Lee Magee » September 20th, 2017, 11:51 pm

Wes Wood wrote:
September 20th, 2017, 11:32 pm
This is how I would translate the passage you posted:
διὰ τοῦτο λέγεται ἐν βιβλίῳ πόλεμος τοῦ κυρίου τὴν Ζωοβ ἐφλόγισεν καὶ τοὺς χειμάρρους Αρνων καὶ τοὺς χειμάρρους κατέστησεν κατοικίσαι Ηρ καὶ πρόσκειται τοῖς ὁρίοις Μωαβ καὶ ἐκεῖθεν τὸ φρέαρ τοῦτό ἐστιν τὸ φρέαρ ὃ εἶπεν κύριος πρὸς Μωυσῆν συνάγαγε τὸν λαόν καὶ δώσω αὐτοῖς ὕδωρ πιεῖν

For this reason it says in a book a war of the Lord set Zoob on fire, and the winter streams of Arnon [as well], and he established the winter streams to settle Er, and it lies by the boundaries of Moab. And the well [is] from there. This is the well about which [the] Lord told Moses, “Gather the people and I will give them water to drink.”
I believe some parts of this passage would make better sense to me with more context, but this is how I understand what is there. You will get more out of your work if you focus on learning Greek grammar as the key to understanding the Greek without appealing to outside sources. Best of luck to you as you continue your studies.
I am more towards lexicology rather then Grammar, i can translate words but i struggle forming sentences with them, the more i learn the better i will get.
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Lee Magee
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Joined: September 20th, 2017, 12:04 pm
Location: Wales , UK

Re: Numbers 21:13

Post by Lee Magee » September 21st, 2017, 3:53 am

The wandering of Moses is envisioned around a desert temperate, but when i read the Septuagint , Moses is wandering around a snowy temperate

Numbers 21:31 ' the Lord set the Snow on fire '


Winter-torrents of Arnon

Αρνων
- ἀρνών - ἀρνός - ἔριον * Wool

Psalms 147:16
χιόνα ὡσεὶ ἔριον * Snow like wool

Winter streams of wool
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Wes Wood
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Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: Numbers 21:13

Post by Wes Wood » September 21st, 2017, 8:17 am

Lee Magee wrote:
September 20th, 2017, 11:51 pm
Wes Wood wrote:
September 20th, 2017, 11:32 pm
This is how I would translate the passage you posted:
διὰ τοῦτο λέγεται ἐν βιβλίῳ πόλεμος τοῦ κυρίου τὴν Ζωοβ ἐφλόγισεν καὶ τοὺς χειμάρρους Αρνων καὶ τοὺς χειμάρρους κατέστησεν κατοικίσαι Ηρ καὶ πρόσκειται τοῖς ὁρίοις Μωαβ καὶ ἐκεῖθεν τὸ φρέαρ τοῦτό ἐστιν τὸ φρέαρ ὃ εἶπεν κύριος πρὸς Μωυσῆν συνάγαγε τὸν λαόν καὶ δώσω αὐτοῖς ὕδωρ πιεῖν

For this reason it says in a book a war of the Lord set Zoob on fire, and the winter streams of Arnon [as well], and he established the winter streams to settle Er, and it lies by the boundaries of Moab. And the well [is] from there. This is the well about which [the] Lord told Moses, “Gather the people and I will give them water to drink.”
I believe some parts of this passage would make better sense to me with more context, but this is how I understand what is there. You will get more out of your work if you focus on learning Greek grammar as the key to understanding the Greek without appealing to outside sources. Best of luck to you as you continue your studies.
I am more towards lexicology rather then Grammar, i can translate words but i struggle forming sentences with them, the more i learn the better i will get.
Lexicology won't help you learn as quickly as focusing on grammar, but that is a decision you must make for yourself. Again, good luck!
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Numbers 21:13

Post by Jonathan Robie » September 21st, 2017, 9:37 am

Lee Magee wrote:
September 20th, 2017, 11:51 pm
Wes Wood wrote:
September 20th, 2017, 11:32 pm
You will get more out of your work if you focus on learning Greek grammar as the key to understanding the Greek without appealing to outside sources. Best of luck to you as you continue your studies.
I am more towards lexicology rather then Grammar, i can translate words but i struggle forming sentences with them, the more i learn the better i will get.
Words are not a language. If you want to learn Greek, you need to learn grammar. And this is actually B-Greek policy:
In the Beginner's Forum, we welcome beginners who do not yet have a working knowledge of Biblical Greek, and are actively working to learn the language. We want to help. Even basic questions about the meaning of the Greek text are welcome in the Beginner's Forum, and there's no shame in mistakes. Beginners will be gently pushed toward learning these structures over time, pointed to textbooks and other aids that will help them, and coached in how to see these structures in a text. Learning a language is all about learning the structure signals, so we will try to help you learn what these signals are and how to recognize them in a text.
Follow the link to see what I mean. You simply have to be able to identify the subject and objects of a verb, antecedents, etc. to actually read a sentence. Without that, looking up words one at a time is an exercise in generating random meanings based on free association. Which is a common way to use interlinears.
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http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Lee Magee
Posts: 9
Joined: September 20th, 2017, 12:04 pm
Location: Wales , UK

Re: Numbers 21:13

Post by Lee Magee » September 21st, 2017, 3:48 pm

i wouldn't translate βιβλίῳ as Book, but as Paper or Papyrus, or some word
for that root.

In that verse κυρίου is not preceded by a article, that would usually be ὁ
but i contextualise κυρίου being a dialectic form of πορεῖον ( Poreion ) ' Carriage'
in Latin that is Carrus in Hebrew Kĕruwb or χερουβ ' Chariot ' .

Numbers 21:14 is similar to Exodus 15:3-4
' What he did in the Red sea '

Exodus 15:3-4 ' Chariots cast into the Red Sea '
κύριος συντρίβων πολέμους κύριος ὄνομα αὐτῷ
ἅρματα Φαραω καὶ τὴν δύναμιν αὐτοῦ ἔρριψεν εἰς ὲ ἄλογός ἐπιλέκτους ἀναβάτας τριστάτας κατεπόντισεν ἐν ἐρυθρᾷ θαλάσσῃ

συντρίβων πολέμους κύριος
βιβλίῳ πόλεμος τοῦ κυρίου

If Ζωοβ ἐφλόγισεν ' meant 'Red Sea' then 'Ζωοβ is most likely a transliteration of 'cuwphah' , meaning 'mouth or lips' thus 'Ζωοβ ἐφλόγισεν' would mean 'Burned Mouth '

Exodus 14:30 'χεῖλος τῆς θαλάσσης ' that Hebrew renders 'Yam Saphah'
or ' χεῖλος τοῦ ποταμοῦ' /Gen 41:17 / or in 2Ki 2:13 'χείλους τοῦ Ιορδάνου'

Then θαλάσσῃ is somehow related to ἐφλόγισεν', this word
from ' φλόξ ( Phlox > Thlass )

The word Sea ' YM ' is a dialectic form of 'DM' (Blood) and 'ADM' (Red ) cognate
with the Gk αἷμα so ἐρυθρᾷ came from YM , a synonym is ἱαρᾷ ( Blood / Juice)
then that explains 'Exodus 4:9 'יְאֹר דָּם ' ( ἱαρᾷ αἷμα) and Ιορδάνου 'ἱαρᾷ δῆμος'
since 'Jordan and Red Sea' are synonymous as with Εδωμ or Εδεμ

Jos 5:1 - the LORD had dried up the waters of Jordan
Jos 2:10 - -the LORD dried up the water of the Red sea

Thus Numbers 21:13 as a much deeper contextual meaning.
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