Matt 7:14 - τι

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David Lim
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Matt 7:14 - τι

Post by David Lim » July 17th, 2011, 3:04 am

BYZ/WHNU wrote:[Matt 7] [14] τι στενη η πυλη και τεθλιμμενη η οδος η απαγουσα εις την ζωην και ολιγοι εισιν οι ευρισκοντες αυτην
I can't figure out what "τι" is doing there.. Is it an adverbial interrogative determiner such that "τι στενη" means "how narrow"? Or is it an adverbial interrogative particle such that "τι στενη η πυλη και τεθλιμμενη η οδος η απαγουσα εις την ζωην" means "why, narrow [is] the gate and constricted [is] the path that leads into the life"? Or could it be that "οτι" was intended, as TR has it? LSJ says:
LSJ wrote:IV. τί as exclamatory Adv., how . . ! “τί ὡραιώθησαν σιαγόνες σου ὡς τρυγόνες” LXX Ca.1.10, cf. 4.10; τί θέλω how I wish! Ev.Luc.12.49; τί στενή v.l. in Ev.Matt.7.14.
But the first two are not quite the same as the third. Moreover can these three mean "why, ..." instead? Or does anyone think that "οτι" is the original? ;)
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cwconrad
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Re: Matt 7:14 - τι

Post by cwconrad » July 17th, 2011, 6:53 am

David Lim wrote:
BYZ/WHNU wrote:[Matt 7] [14] τι στενη η πυλη και τεθλιμμενη η οδος η απαγουσα εις την ζωην και ολιγοι εισιν οι ευρισκοντες αυτην
I can't figure out what "τι" is doing there.. Is it an adverbial interrogative determiner such that "τι στενη" means "how narrow"? Or is it an adverbial interrogative particle such that "τι στενη η πυλη και τεθλιμμενη η οδος η απαγουσα εις την ζωην" means "why, narrow [is] the gate and constricted [is] the path that leads into the life"? Or could it be that "οτι" was intended, as TR has it? LSJ says:
LSJ wrote:IV. τί as exclamatory Adv., how . . ! “τί ὡραιώθησαν σιαγόνες σου ὡς τρυγόνες” LXX Ca.1.10, cf. 4.10; τί θέλω how I wish! Ev.Luc.12.49; τί στενή v.l. in Ev.Matt.7.14.
But the first two are not quite the same as the third. Moreover can these three mean "why, ..." instead? Or does anyone think that "οτι" is the original? ;)
LSJ is closer; note that it is citing Biblical texts -- GNT and LXX. This seems to be a Semitism.
BDAG, s.v. τίς infram:

3. exclamatory expression of extent or degree, how! adv. τί (transl. of Hebr. מָה; W-S. §21, 4; B-D-F §299, 4; Rob. 739; 1176; LXX [Ps 3:2; SSol 1:10; 7:7; 2 Km 6:20]; Basilius, Hexaëm. p. 8b MPG τί καλὴ ἡ τάξις [s. JTrunk, De Basilio Magno sermonis Attici imitatore: Wissensch. Beilage z. Jahresber. d. Gymn. Ehingen a. D. 1911, 36]) τί στενή Mt 7:14; τί θέλω Lk 12:49 (s. θέλω 1, end, and Black, Aramaic Approach3, ’67, 121–24).—M-M. EDNT.

Not quite the same, but somewhat similar is colloquial English: "What a shame!" or "What a strange thing!" -- where the interrogative word expresses a degree of wonderment.
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

David Lim
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Joined: June 6th, 2011, 6:55 am

Re: Matt 7:14 - τι

Post by David Lim » July 17th, 2011, 10:27 am

cwconrad wrote:
David Lim wrote:
BYZ/WHNU wrote:[Matt 7] [14] τι στενη η πυλη και τεθλιμμενη η οδος η απαγουσα εις την ζωην και ολιγοι εισιν οι ευρισκοντες αυτην
I can't figure out what "τι" is doing there.. Is it an adverbial interrogative determiner such that "τι στενη" means "how narrow"? Or is it an adverbial interrogative particle such that "τι στενη η πυλη και τεθλιμμενη η οδος η απαγουσα εις την ζωην" means "why, narrow [is] the gate and constricted [is] the path that leads into the life"? Or could it be that "οτι" was intended, as TR has it? LSJ says:
LSJ wrote:IV. τί as exclamatory Adv., how . . ! “τί ὡραιώθησαν σιαγόνες σου ὡς τρυγόνες” LXX Ca.1.10, cf. 4.10; τί θέλω how I wish! Ev.Luc.12.49; τί στενή v.l. in Ev.Matt.7.14.
But the first two are not quite the same as the third. Moreover can these three mean "why, ..." instead? Or does anyone think that "οτι" is the original? ;)
LSJ is closer; note that it is citing Biblical texts -- GNT and LXX. This seems to be a Semitism.
BDAG, s.v. τίς infram:

3. exclamatory expression of extent or degree, how! adv. τί (transl. of Hebr. מָה; W-S. §21, 4; B-D-F §299, 4; Rob. 739; 1176; LXX [Ps 3:2; SSol 1:10; 7:7; 2 Km 6:20]; Basilius, Hexaëm. p. 8b MPG τί καλὴ ἡ τάξις [s. JTrunk, De Basilio Magno sermonis Attici imitatore: Wissensch. Beilage z. Jahresber. d. Gymn. Ehingen a. D. 1911, 36]) τί στενή Mt 7:14; τί θέλω Lk 12:49 (s. θέλω 1, end, and Black, Aramaic Approach3, ’67, 121–24).—M-M. EDNT.

Not quite the same, but somewhat similar is colloquial English: "What a shame!" or "What a strange thing!" -- where the interrogative word expresses a degree of wonderment.
Okay I get it, thanks! I think SS 7:7 was the clearest. But what is "2 Km 6:20"?
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cwconrad
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Re: Matt 7:14 - τι

Post by cwconrad » July 17th, 2011, 12:06 pm

David Lim wrote:[Okay I get it, thanks! I think SS 7:7 was the clearest. But what is "2 Km 6:20"?
2 Km (2 Kingdoms) 6:20 = 2 Sam 6:20:

2Sam. 6:20 καὶ ἐπέστρεψεν Δαυιδ εὐλογῆσαι τὸν οἶκον αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐξῆλθεν Μελχολ ἡ θυγάτηρ Σαουλ εἰς ἀπάντησιν Δαυιδ καὶ εὐλόγησεν αὐτὸν καὶ εἶπεν Τί δεδόξασται σήμερον ὁ βασιλεὺς Ισραηλ, ὃς ἀπεκαλύφθη σήμερον ἐν ὀφθαλμοῖς παιδισκῶν τῶν δούλων ἑαυτοῦ, καθὼς ἀποκαλύπτεται ἀποκαλυφθεὶς εἷς τῶν ὀρχουμένων.
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Mark Lightman
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Joined: May 6th, 2011, 6:30 pm

Re: Matt 7:14 - τι

Post by Mark Lightman » July 17th, 2011, 2:21 pm

Or does anyone think that "οτι" is the original? ;)
Hi, David,

Westcott-Hort do, in one of the rare cases where they agree with the T.R. against both NA and RP. But Michael Holmes is the latest guy to think that ὅτι is original.

[ Note: Changed accentuation of οτι from ὃτι to ὅτι. - Jason Hare ]
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