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In Romans 1:7, "called to be saints" or "invited, holy"?

Posted: March 17th, 2019, 1:04 pm
by Bill Ross
[Rom 1:7 MGNT] (7) πᾶσιν τοῖς οὖσιν ἐν Ῥώμῃ ἀγαπητοῖς θεοῦ κλητοῖς ἁγίοις χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη ἀπὸ θεοῦ πατρὸς ἡμῶν καὶ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ
"called to be saints"

or, "invited, holy"?

Or perhaps,

"invited, holy-men"?

Or,

"invited holy-men"?

Re: In Romans 1:7, "called to be saints" or "invited, holy"?

Posted: March 18th, 2019, 6:09 pm
by MAubrey
Just men?

Re: In Romans 1:7, "called to be saints" or "invited, holy"?

Posted: March 19th, 2019, 9:42 am
by Barry Hofstetter
MAubrey wrote:
March 18th, 2019, 6:09 pm
Just men?
Of course, considering that the masculine was the common gender, women are not excluded.

Re: In Romans 1:7, "called to be saints" or "invited, holy"?

Posted: March 19th, 2019, 11:06 am
by Daniel Semler
I'm not sure if I'm getting Bill's question exactly but it appears that he is asking about whether there are three addressees or just one, with additional qualification (correct me if I'm wrong Bill). Regardless, I have wondered about this myself in this passage.

κλητοις is generally treated as a verbal adjective, and sometimes a conjunction is inserted, and often "to be". I haven't really investigated this enough I'm sure but I'll ask the question anyway as it's come up.

What is the reason/are the reasons for discounting a meaning rendered in English for this:

Ῥωμαίους 1·7 πᾶσιν τοῖς οὖσιν ἐν Ῥώμῃ ἀγαπητοῖς θεοῦ, κλητοῖς ἁγίοις, χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη ἀπὸ θεοῦ πατρὸς ἡμῶν καὶ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ.

somewhat as :

To all those beloved of God in Rome, to the called, to the holy .... etc. etc.

?

I can see that the adjunct "οὖσιν ἐν Ῥώμῃ" might then be argued to apply only to the first group and thus that might be weird - where are the others. I'm happy to accept this was a common idiom for greetings, though I haven't studied that - must pull out the book I have on Paul's greeting and salutations sometime and look this up.

Of course, number, gender and case agreement argues for a close connection, a point Bill's question seems to be getting at, in one example.

I don't know about lexical issues for κλητοις. Would have to look that up also.

Anyhow, just wondering what people think ...

Thx
D

Re: In Romans 1:7, "called to be saints" or "invited, holy"?

Posted: March 19th, 2019, 2:45 pm
by Barry Hofstetter
κλητός, ή, όν (s. καλέω; Hom.; Aeschin. 2, 162; Aelian, NA 11, 12; PAmh 79, 5; LXX; Hippol., Ref. 5, 6, 7) pert. to being invited, called, invited to a meal (3 Km 1:41, 49; 3 Macc 5:14) in imagery of invitation to the kgdm. of God Mt 22:14 (=B 4:14); cp. 20:16 v.l.—Also without the figure consciously in the background called to God’s kgdm. κ. ἅγιοι saints who are called (by God) Ro 1:7; 1 Cor 1:2; cp. B 4:13 ὡς κλητοί.—Subst. (SibOr 8, 92) κλητοὶ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ called by Jesus Christ Ro 1:6 (for the gen. cp. 3 Km 1:49 οἱ κλητοὶ τοῦ Αδωνιου). τοῖς κλητοῖς μου ApcPtRainer 1. κατὰ πρόθεσιν κ. ὄντες called in accordance w. (God’s) purpose 8:28. οἱ κλητοί those who are called 1 Cor 1:24; Jd 1. οἱ μετʼ αὐτοῦ κλητοὶ κ. ἐκλεκτοὶ κ. πιστοί Rv 17:14. κ. ἡγιασμένοι ἐν θελήματι θεοῦ διὰ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰ. Χρ. those who are called and consecrated acc. to God’s will through our Lord Jesus Christ 1 Cl ins.—Of calling to an office: κ. ἀπόστολος called (by God) as an apostle Ro 1:1; 1 Cor 1:1.—DELG s.v. καλέω. M-M. TW.

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 549). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

Re: In Romans 1:7, "called to be saints" or "invited, holy"?

Posted: March 19th, 2019, 10:36 pm
by Daniel Semler
EGGNT is interesting on this, treating this as the first dative phrase πᾶσιν τοῖς οὖσιν ἐν Ῥώμῃ and then followed by two appositives, ἀγαπητοῖς θεοῦ, κλητοῖς ἁγίοις. It doesn't address the issue I asked about but ... I'm not sure I like this though, in that then one is left with the appositives really being two descriptions of one subset of all the people living in Rome at the time, but I guess that it's a possible reading.

I have tended to consider it like this πᾶσιν τοῖς οὖσιν ἐν Ῥώμῃ ἀγαπητοῖς θεοῦ and a single appositive κλητοῖς ἁγίοις. That is also how the Accordance syntax chart seems to model it though I need to check some stuff there.

Thx
D

Re: In Romans 1:7, "called to be saints" or "invited, holy"?

Posted: March 22nd, 2019, 3:40 pm
by Bill Ross
I came across this which might be being alluded to:
62:12 καὶ καλέσει αὐτὸν λαὸν ἅγιον λελυτρωμένον ὑπὸ κυρίου σὺ δὲ κληθήσῃ ἐπιζητουμένη πόλις καὶ οὐκ ἐγκαταλελειμμένη
If so, what is the sense of "call" here? Name? As in "I will name the people holy [ones]"?

Re: In Romans 1:7, "called to be saints" or "invited, holy"?

Posted: March 23rd, 2019, 11:43 am
by Jonathan Robie
Bill Ross wrote:
March 22nd, 2019, 3:40 pm
I came across this which might be being alluded to:
62:12 καὶ καλέσει αὐτὸν λαὸν ἅγιον λελυτρωμένον ὑπὸ κυρίου σὺ δὲ κληθήσῃ ἐπιζητουμένη πόλις καὶ οὐκ ἐγκαταλελειμμένη
If so, what is the sense of "call" here? Name? As in "I will name the people holy [ones]"?
Let's talk about Greek words, not English words.

καλέσει is third person singular. What does that tell you about the subject of this verb? What verb are we talking about? How does that compare to the word used in Romans 1:7?

Re: In Romans 1:7, "called to be saints" or "invited, holy"?

Posted: March 23rd, 2019, 12:14 pm
by Bill Ross
Jonathan Robie wrote:
March 23rd, 2019, 11:43 am
Bill Ross wrote:
March 22nd, 2019, 3:40 pm
I came across this which might be being alluded to:
62:12 καὶ καλέσει αὐτὸν λαὸν ἅγιον λελυτρωμένον ὑπὸ κυρίου σὺ δὲ κληθήσῃ ἐπιζητουμένη πόλις καὶ οὐκ ἐγκαταλελειμμένη
If so, what is the sense of "call" here? Name? As in "I will name the people holy [ones]"?
Let's talk about Greek words, not English words.

καλέσει is third person singular. What does that tell you about the subject of this verb? What verb are we talking about? How does that compare to the word used in Romans 1:7?
Isaiah has an implied "He" (presumably he means "God") as the subject.
Paul has "πᾶσιν τοῖς οὖσιν ἐν Ῥώμῃ ἀγαπητοῖς θεοῦ κλητοῖς ἁγίοις" in the dative as they are the recipients of the letter:

πᾶσιν τοῖς οὖσιν ἐν Ῥώμῃ
ἀγαπητοῖς θεοῦ [in apposition]
κλητοῖς ἁγίοις [in apposition]

OR,

πᾶσιν τοῖς οὖσιν ἐν Ῥώμῃ
ἀγαπητοῖς θεοῦ [in apposition]
κλητοῖς [in apposition]
ἁγίοις [in apposition]

Re: In Romans 1:7, "called to be saints" or "invited, holy"?

Posted: March 23rd, 2019, 12:24 pm
by Jonathan Robie
Bill Ross wrote:
March 23rd, 2019, 12:14 pm
Jonathan Robie wrote:
March 23rd, 2019, 11:43 am
καλέσει is third person singular. What does that tell you about the subject of this verb? What verb are we talking about? How does that compare to the word used in Romans 1:7?
Isaiah has an implied "He" (presumably he means "God") as the subject.
What does the context tell you about the subject?

What do the translations say here? Why do you think they might say that? I'm afraid here, you have to refer to translations of the Septuagint to make sure it matches the Greek.
Bill Ross wrote:
March 23rd, 2019, 12:14 pm
Paul has "πᾶσιν τοῖς οὖσιν ἐν Ῥώμῃ ἀγαπητοῖς θεοῦ κλητοῖς ἁγίοις" in the dative as they are the recipients of the letter:

πᾶσιν τοῖς οὖσιν ἐν Ῥώμῃ
ἀγαπητοῖς θεοῦ [in apposition]
κλητοῖς ἁγίοις [in apposition]

OR,

πᾶσιν τοῖς οὖσιν ἐν Ῥώμῃ
ἀγαπητοῖς θεοῦ [in apposition]
κλητοῖς [in apposition]
ἁγίοις [in apposition]
Are κλητοῖς and καλέσει different forms of the same word, or are they different words? What does the lexicon tell you about each word?