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In John 19:27 is it "to his own [home]" or "as his own [mother]"?

Posted: August 28th, 2019, 9:20 am
by Bill Ross
[Jhn 19:27 MGNT] (27) εἶτα λέγει τῷ μαθητῇ ἴδε ἡ μήτηρ σου καὶ ἀπ’ ἐκείνης τῆς ὥρας ἔλαβεν ὁ μαθητὴς αὐτὴν εἰς τὰ ἴδια

Re: In John 19:27 is it "to his own [home]" or "as his own [mother]"?

Posted: August 28th, 2019, 10:49 am
by Daniel Semler
Bill Ross wrote:
August 28th, 2019, 9:20 am
[Jhn 19:27 MGNT] (27) εἶτα λέγει τῷ μαθητῇ ἴδε ἡ μήτηρ σου καὶ ἀπ’ ἐκείνης τῆς ὥρας ἔλαβεν ὁ μαθητὴς αὐτὴν εἰς τὰ ἴδια
Given it's neuter plural I would have taken it as "for his own possession/among his own possesssions". But that literal a thing here seems problematic. And "for his own" though I like Tyndale on this, could have the wrong connotation - wife rather than mother. So the ambiguity and conflict of cases leads to the question; is it an idiom ? At this point lexica can help. Spicq, BDAG etc. εἰς τὰ ἴδια appears in other contexts and appears to have a certain flexibility as to precise interpretation. Almost all English translations in this context say something like "into his home/household". In other contexts "his own place", "his business affairs", "to his own [possessions]".

In this context and similar ones (cf. Jn 16:32) "into his own home" seems fine.

There have been papers written on this, referred to in Spicq above. But the translators seem for the most part happy with "into his home".
33 John 19:27 (cf. P.Bon. 29, 13: λαβεῖν παρά σου τὸν ἴδιον ον——). F. M. Braun (La Mère des fidèles, Tournai-Paris, 1953, pp. 124–129) presents four possible translations: (1) “the disciple took her into his home”; (2) “received her into his home” (λαμβάνω can mean “take” or “welcome”); (3) “he received her into his property,” as an inheritance, in the spiritual sense: of faith and love; (4) “he received (or took) her as his possession” (French pour son bien); εἰς can be the equivalent of the Hebrew lamed, corresponding to the conjunction ὡς (cf. Acts 7:53). F. M. Braun prefers the second, or better, the third translation. He is followed by I. de la Potterie, “‘La Parole de Jésus ‘Voici ta Mère’ et l’accueil du Disciple (Jn. XIX, 27 b),” in Marianum, 1974, pp. 1–39 (taken up by J. Gnilka, Neue Testament und Kirche: Festschrift R. Schnackenburg, Freiburg, 1974, pp. 191–219), and R. Schnackenburg, John, vol. 3, pp. 279, 458–459, but refuted by F. Neirynck, “ΕΙΣ ΤΑ ΙΔΙΑ: Jn XIX, 27 (et XVI, 32),” in ETL, 1979, pp. 357–365. Cf. R. E. Brown, “The ‘Mother of Jesus’ in the Fourth Gospel,” in M. De Jonge, L’Evangile de Jean, Gembloux-Louvain, 1977, pp. 307–310. In effect, idia refers generally to the legal domicile, but less as a territory (place of origin, birth) than as a community where one is enrolled (ἀναγραφόμενος), where one has rights to claim or is held to obligations (M. Hombert, C. Préaux, Recherches sur le recensement dans l’Egypte romaine, Leiden, 1952, pp. 68ff.). The term connotes the inhabitants of a house rather than the house itself (cf. ἀναχώρησις, withdrawal from legal obligations, H.Braunert, “ΙΔΙΑ: Studien zur Bevölkerungsgeschichte des ptolemäischen und römischen Ägypten,” in JJP, vol. 9–10, 1955–56, pp. 211–328).

“ἴδιος, ἴδια, ἰδίᾳ,” TLNT, 2:211.
https://accordance.bible/link/read/Spicq#6172
The UBS Translators handbook gives :
19.27
She is translates the same particle (literally “behold”) used in verse 26. From that time is generally rendered “from that hour,” but the generic “time” is more natural in English than “hour.” NEB and JB translate “from that moment.” To live in his home translates a phrase first used in 1.11 (TEVto his own country); it was also used in 16.32 (TEVto his own home). Took her to live in his home can be rendered in some languages “made her a member of his household” or “considered her a member of his family” or “treated her as a member of his own household.”


Barclay M. Newman and Eugene A. Nida, A Translator’s Handbook on the Gospel of John, UBS Translator’s Handbooks; Accordance electronic ed. (New York: United Bible Societies, 1980), paragraph 29202.
https://accordance.bible/link/read/UBS_ ... s-NT#29202
Thx
D

Re: In John 19:27 is it "to his own [home]" or "as his own [mother]"?

Posted: August 29th, 2019, 8:39 am
by Barry Hofstetter
I had no idea that there was such a discussion on this, though I shouldn't be surprised, since the ability to complicate what is actually quite simple appears to be both infinite and ubiquitous. The neuter plural simply expresses the entire scope of John's resources, and can be rendered "into his own." It's saying that from now on, he's taking care of her.