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Philippians 3:19

Posted: November 1st, 2019, 5:42 am
by Matt Lau
I'm having trouble understanding the construction of ὧν τὸ τέλος ἀπώλεια in verse 19. How should the clause with the genitive relative pronoun be translated? I'm unclear on how that genitive is used. Also, is the antecedent πολλοὶ or ἐχθροὺς ?

18 πολλοὶ γὰρ περιπατοῦσιν οὓς πολλάκις ἔλεγον ὑμῖν, νῦν δὲ καὶ κλαίων λέγω, τοὺς ἐχθροὺς τοῦ σταυροῦ τοῦ Χριστοῦ,
19 ὧν τὸ τέλος ἀπώλεια, ὧν ὁ θεὸς ἡ κοιλία καὶ ἡ δόξα ἐν τῇ αἰσχύνῃ αὐτῶν, οἱ τὰ ἐπίγεια φρονοῦντες.

Re: Philippians 3:19

Posted: November 1st, 2019, 7:20 am
by Jason Hare
(1) What is your real name? In order to post on the forum, you must use your real name and not a username. I've released this post in the meantime. Please respond so that we can update your name.

(2) The expressions πολλοί and ἐχθροί here refer to the same people and would be indexed with the same referent. It isn't often useful to identify a single word as the antecedent of a pronoun when it is really a concept that is being referred to.

Re: Philippians 3:19

Posted: November 1st, 2019, 8:11 am
by Barry Hofstetter
lattmau wrote:
November 1st, 2019, 5:42 am
I'm having trouble understanding the construction of ὧν τὸ τέλος ἀπώλεια in verse 19. How should the clause with the genitive relative pronoun be translated? I'm unclear on how that genitive is used. Also, is the antecedent πολλοὶ or ἐχθροὺς ?

18 πολλοὶ γὰρ περιπατοῦσιν οὓς πολλάκις ἔλεγον ὑμῖν, νῦν δὲ καὶ κλαίων λέγω, τοὺς ἐχθροὺς τοῦ σταυροῦ τοῦ Χριστοῦ,
19 ὧν τὸ τέλος ἀπώλεια, ὧν ὁ θεὸς ἡ κοιλία καὶ ἡ δόξα ἐν τῇ αἰσχύνῃ αὐτῶν, οἱ τὰ ἐπίγεια φρονοῦντες.
Yes, we need your real name... :) To answer the other part of your question, if you're referring to the two ὧν clauses, it's a simple possessive genitive, normally rendered "whose."

Re: Philippians 3:19

Posted: November 1st, 2019, 9:58 am
by Jason Hare
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
November 1st, 2019, 8:11 am
lattmau wrote:
November 1st, 2019, 5:42 am
I'm having trouble understanding the construction of ὧν τὸ τέλος ἀπώλεια in verse 19. How should the clause with the genitive relative pronoun be translated? I'm unclear on how that genitive is used. Also, is the antecedent πολλοὶ or ἐχθροὺς ?

18 πολλοὶ γὰρ περιπατοῦσιν οὓς πολλάκις ἔλεγον ὑμῖν, νῦν δὲ καὶ κλαίων λέγω, τοὺς ἐχθροὺς τοῦ σταυροῦ τοῦ Χριστοῦ,
19 ὧν τὸ τέλος ἀπώλεια, ὧν ὁ θεὸς ἡ κοιλία καὶ ἡ δόξα ἐν τῇ αἰσχύνῃ αὐτῶν, οἱ τὰ ἐπίγεια φρονοῦντες.
Yes, we need your real name... :) To answer the other part of your question, if you're referring to the two ὧν clauses, it's a simple possessive genitive, normally rendered "whose."
Yeah, he (?) seems to have been asking if ὧν refers back to πολλοί or to ἐχθρούς. Since both might be indexed to i (πολλοί and ἐχθρούς), the relative pronoun would also be ὧν, though the people themselves are unidentified. It refers to anyone whom Paul identified as an enemy of Christ's cross. I'm just saying that the "antecedent" doesn't matter, but that it could be both (since they have the same referent).