τὰ χείλη ἡμῶν παρ᾿ ἡμῖν ἐστίν

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Matthew Longhorn
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τὰ χείλη ἡμῶν παρ᾿ ἡμῖν ἐστίν

Post by Matthew Longhorn » December 28th, 2019, 4:13 am

Hi all, I am reading through 1 Clement at the moment and hit 15:5 and am puzzled by the use of παρά here. I know that the dative can be used for possession, with the focus being on the object, but I can't seem to find a reference to a possessive nuance of the preposition here. I have checked the lexicons I have and the grammars but can't seem to work this one out. Is παρά legitimately used in possessive contexts or is there a better fit here?

Text from Holmes:
διὰ τοῦτο ἄλαλα γενηθήτω τὰ χείλη τὰ δόλια ⸀τὰ λαλοῦντα κατὰ τοῦ δικαίου ἀνομίαν. καὶ πάλιν· Ἐξολεθρεύσαι κύριος πάντα τὰ χείλη τὰ δόλια⸃, ⸂γλῶσσαν μεγαλορήμονα⸃, τοὺς εἰπόντας· Τὴν γλῶσσαν ἡμῶν ⸀μεγαλύνωμεν, τὰ χείλη ἡμῶν παρ᾿ ἡμῖν ἐστίν· τίς ἡμῶν κύριός ἐστιν; 6 ἀπὸ τῆς ταλαιπωρίας τῶν πτωχῶν ⸀καὶ τοῦ στεναγμοῦ τῶν πενήτων νῦν ἀναστήσομαι, λέγει κύριος· θήσομαι ⸂ἐν σωτηρίῳ⸃, 7 παρρησιάσομαι ἐν αὐτῷ.

Holmes' translation is as follows
Therefore, “let the deceitful lips that speak evil against the righteous be struck speechless.” And again: “May the Lord utterly destroy all the deceitful lips, the boastful tongue, and those who say, ‘Let us praise our tongue; our lips are our own. Who is lord over us?’ 6 Because of the misery of the needy and because of the groaning of the poor I will now arise, says the Lord. I will place him in safety; 7 I will deal boldly with him.”

Sorry if I have missed an obvious reference somewhere
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timothy_p_mcmahon
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Re: τὰ χείλη ἡμῶν παρ᾿ ἡμῖν ἐστίν

Post by timothy_p_mcmahon » December 28th, 2019, 5:14 am

It’s a woodenly literal rendering of Psalm 12:4 in LXX.
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Matthew Longhorn
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Re: τὰ χείλη ἡμῶν παρ᾿ ἡμῖν ἐστίν

Post by Matthew Longhorn » December 28th, 2019, 5:31 am

Thanks Timothy, I didn't think to check the source text. Really need to do better digging in the future.
So, the LXX has para + gen while clement uses the dative. Unfortunately, now I am puzzled regarding both of these



ἐξολεθρεύσαι κύριος πάντα τὰ χείλη τὰ δόλια †
† καὶ γλῶσσαν μεγαλορήμονα
† 5 τοὺς εἰπόντας Τὴν γλῶσσαν ἡμῶν μεγαλυνοῦμεν,
τὰ χείλη ἡμῶν παρʼ ἡμῶν ἐστιν·
τίς ἡμῶν κύριός ἐστιν;
6 Ἀπὸ τῆς ταλαιπωρίας τῶν πτωχῶν †
† καὶ ἀπὸ τοῦ στεναγμοῦ τῶν πενήτων
† νῦν ἀναστήσομαι, λέγει κύριος,
† θήσομαι ἐν σωτηρίᾳ, παρρησιάσομαι ἐν αὐτῷ. Psalms 11:4-6 (LXX-APP-Parsed)
timothy_p_mcmahon wrote:
December 28th, 2019, 5:14 am
It’s a woodenly literal rendering of Psalm 12:4 in LXX.
The case has shifted here - could that be due to the meaning of para changing between the LXX times and Clements? Just hesitant to ascribe it to wooden rendering without understanding better whether this is a legitimate form of speech especially as the rest of the passage he cites is basically the same
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: τὰ χείλη ἡμῶν παρ᾿ ἡμῖν ἐστίν

Post by Barry Hofstetter » December 28th, 2019, 9:53 am

παρά can take all three cases.
BDAG wrote:A. W. gen., which nearly always as in Hom., Hdt., Pla., X. et al. denotes a pers., and indicates that someth. proceeds fr. this pers. (Hs 2:3 is an exception):

B. w. dat., the case that exhibits close association

C. w. acc. of pers. or thing
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 757). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

If you look at the entries under each of the subsections above, you'll see quite a few usages -- it's a very flexible preposition.

This one of those times (among many) were the Greek is a bit difficult simply because it's translation Greek. I read the Hebrew שְׂפָתֵ֣ינוּ אִתָּ֑נוּ lit. "our lips are with us" as that our lips belong to us, we have full control over what we say, which makes good sense in the context. The LXX translator tried to capture that with the preposition but created a kind of nonsense phrase instead. A native speaker composing fresh without reference to the Hebrew wouldn't have done this. Why does Clement use the dative? Well, it makes better sense than the LXX, so I suspect a slight paraphrase on his part.
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
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Matthew Longhorn
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Re: τὰ χείλη ἡμῶν παρ᾿ ἡμῖν ἐστίν

Post by Matthew Longhorn » December 28th, 2019, 10:00 am

Thanks Barry.
I looked through BDAG and those entries still didn't make the usage very clear for me. Sometimes I find the BDAG entries too extensive and need things broken down into smaller/simpler info. The notion of close association with the dative is the best fit I found, but still seemed odd.
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
December 28th, 2019, 9:53 am
his one of those times (among many) were the Greek is a bit difficult simply because it's translation Greek. I read the Hebrew שְׂפָתֵ֣ינוּ אִתָּ֑נוּ lit. "our lips are with us" as that our lips belong to us, we have full control over what we say, which makes good sense in the context. The LXX translator tried to capture that with the preposition but created a kind of nonsense phrase instead.
Good to know it may just be a translation Greek issue and that I haven't been puzzled over something that is perfectly natural and normal Greek!
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