Rom 16:19 - χαιρω το εφ υμιν

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David Lim
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Rom 16:19 - χαιρω το εφ υμιν

Post by David Lim » July 30th, 2011, 1:59 am

Byz wrote:η γαρ υμων υπακοη εις παντας αφικετο χαιρω ουν το εφ υμιν θελω δε υμας σοφους μεν ειναι εις το αγαθον ακεραιους δε εις το κακον
WHNU wrote:η γαρ υμων υπακοη εις παντας αφικετο εφ υμιν ουν χαιρω θελω δε υμας σοφους ειναι εις το αγαθον ακεραιους δε εις το κακον
I cannot understand what the neuter article is doing in front of the prepositional clause in the Byzantine text. It is not there in the NA/UBS text. Does "χαιρω το εφ υμιν" mean something like "I rejoice the [rejoicing] over you", or is it simply equivalent to "χαιρω εφ υμιν" = "I rejoice over you", or is it a grammatical anomaly?
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cwconrad
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Re: Rom 16:19 - χαιρω το εφ υμιν

Post by cwconrad » July 30th, 2011, 6:15 am

David Lim wrote:
Byz wrote:η γαρ υμων υπακοη εις παντας αφικετο χαιρω ουν το εφ υμιν θελω δε υμας σοφους μεν ειναι εις το αγαθον ακεραιους δε εις το κακον
WHNU wrote:η γαρ υμων υπακοη εις παντας αφικετο εφ υμιν ουν χαιρω θελω δε υμας σοφους ειναι εις το αγαθον ακεραιους δε εις το κακον
I cannot understand what the neuter article is doing in front of the prepositional clause in the Byzantine text. It is not there in the NA/UBS text. Does "χαιρω το εφ υμιν" mean something like "I rejoice the [rejoicing] over you", or is it simply equivalent to "χαιρω εφ υμιν" = "I rejoice over you", or is it a grammatical anomaly?
I really don't have time to flesh this out right now, but first, I'll cite a section from the very lengthy article in BDAG that I think is relevant to the question:

e. The art. is used w. prepositional expressions (Artem. 4, 33 p. 224, 7 ὁ ἐν Περγάμῳ; 4, 36 ὁ ἐν Μαγνησίᾳ; 4 [6] Esdr [POxy 1010 recto, 8–12] οἱ ἐν τοῖς πεδίοις . . . οἱ ἐν τοῖς ὄρεσι καὶ μετεώροις; Tat. 31, 2 οἱ μὲν περὶ Κράτητα . . . οἱ δὲ περὶ Ἐρατοσθένη) τῆς ἐκκλησίας τῆς ἐν Κεγχρεαῖς Ro 16:1. ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις ταῖς ἐν τῇ Ἀσίᾳ Rv 1:4. τῷ ἀγγέλῳ τῆς ἐν (w. place name) ἐκκλησίας 2:1, 8, 12, 18; 3:1, 7, 14 (on these pass. RBorger, TRu 52, ’87, 42–45). τοῖς ἐν τῇ οἰκίᾳ to those in the house Mt 5:15. πάτερ ἡμῶν ὁ ἐν τ. οὐρανοῖς 6:9. οἱ ἀπὸ τῆς Ἰταλίας Hb 13:24. οἱ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ Ro 8:1. οἱ ἐξ ἐριθείας 2:8. οἱ ἐκ νόμου 4:14; cp. vs. 16. οἱ ἐκ τῆς Καίσαρος οἰκίας Phil 4:22. οἱ ἐξ εὐωνύμων Mt 25:41. τὸ θυσιαστήριον . . . τὸ ἐνώπιον τοῦ θρόνου Rv 8:3; cp. 9:13. On 1:4 s. ref in B-D-F §136, 1 to restoration by Nestle. οἱ παρ᾿ αὐτοῦ Mk 3:21. οἱ μετ᾿ αὐτοῦ Mt 12:3. οἱ περὶ αὐτόν Mk 4:10; Lk 22:49 al.—Neut. τὰ ἀπὸ τοῦ πλοίου pieces of wreckage fr. the ship Ac 27:44 (difft. FZorell, BZ 9, 1911, 159f). τὰ περί τινος Lk 24:19, 27; Ac 24:10; Phil 1:27 (Tat. 32, 2 τὰ περὶ θεοῦ). τὰ περί τινα 2:23. τὰ κατ᾿ ἐμέ my circumstances Eph 6:21; Phil 1:12; Col 4:7. τὰ κατὰ τὸν νόμον what (was to be done) according to the law Lk 2:39. τὸ ἐξ ὑμῶν Ro 12:18. τὰ πρὸς τὸν θεόν 15:17; Hb 2:17; 5:1 (X., Resp. Lac. 13, 11 ἱερεῖ τὰ πρὸς τοὺς θεούς, στρατηγῷ δὲ τὰ πρὸς τοὺς ἀνθρώπους). τὰ παρ᾿ αὐτῶν Lk 10:7. τὸ ἐν ἐμοί the (child) in me GJs 12:2 al.

Note particularly toward the end of the section such phrases as τὸ ἐν ἐμοί or τὸ ἐξ ὑμῶν. It has been my observation that substantivized prepositional phrases functioning as adverbial expressions tend to appear not infrequently in Hellenistic prose -- in Koine -- without any real difference in meaning from what the prepositional phrase would have meant in the first place. I think that, if we can say that χαίρω ἐφ’ ὑμῖν means "I rejoice over you", the sense of χαίρω τὸ ἐφ’ ὑμῖν means something like, "I rejoice with respect to what relates to you." That is to say, the neuter article substantivizes the prepositional phrase, and then the substantivized expression is understood as an adverbial accusative. It seems sort of silly, I know, but it seems to be the sort of thing that happens in colloquial expressions, e.g. "Hey, that business of what happened last night -- you know? --I'm glad about it." Here it's something like, "the matter of what concerns you -- I'm glad about that."

Of course, it's worth noting that most recent editors have preferred the simpler ἐφ’ ὐμῖν over the substantivized τὸ ἐφ’ ὑμῖν. But those substantivized prepositional phrases certainly do appear in Hellenistic Greek.
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

David Lim
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Re: Rom 16:19 - χαιρω το εφ υμιν

Post by David Lim » July 30th, 2011, 8:04 am

cwconrad wrote:
David Lim wrote:
Byz wrote:η γαρ υμων υπακοη εις παντας αφικετο χαιρω ουν το εφ υμιν θελω δε υμας σοφους μεν ειναι εις το αγαθον ακεραιους δε εις το κακον
WHNU wrote:η γαρ υμων υπακοη εις παντας αφικετο εφ υμιν ουν χαιρω θελω δε υμας σοφους ειναι εις το αγαθον ακεραιους δε εις το κακον
I cannot understand what the neuter article is doing in front of the prepositional clause in the Byzantine text. It is not there in the NA/UBS text. Does "χαιρω το εφ υμιν" mean something like "I rejoice the [rejoicing] over you", or is it simply equivalent to "χαιρω εφ υμιν" = "I rejoice over you", or is it a grammatical anomaly?
It has been my observation that substantivized prepositional phrases functioning as adverbial expressions tend to appear not infrequently in Hellenistic prose -- in Koine -- without any real difference in meaning from what the prepositional phrase would have meant in the first place. I think that, if we can say that χαίρω ἐφ’ ὑμῖν means "I rejoice over you", the sense of χαίρω τὸ ἐφ’ ὑμῖν means something like, "I rejoice with respect to what relates to you." That is to say, the neuter article substantivizes the prepositional phrase, and then the substantivized expression is understood as an adverbial accusative. It seems sort of silly, I know, but it seems to be the sort of thing that happens in colloquial expressions, e.g. "Hey, that business of what happened last night -- you know? --I'm glad about it." Here it's something like, "the matter of what concerns you -- I'm glad about that."
I see. Does that mean that "I rejoice the [rejoicing] over you" is quite an accurate representation, since "το εφ υμιν" functions like an adverb that modifies the action specified by "χαιρω"? If it is so, it actually seems quite natural as a circumlocution to me, although in English such repetitive constructions are rare. Reminds me of "in the judgement which you judge you will be judged" haha..
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timothy_p_mcmahon
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Re: Rom 16:19 - χαιρω το εφ υμιν

Post by timothy_p_mcmahon » July 31st, 2011, 1:32 am

Could το εφ υμιν refer to the news of their obedience reaching the wider Christian community and Paul is rejoicing with respect to the spread of that news and its potential effects?
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Re: Rom 16:19 - χαιρω το εφ υμιν

Post by Jason Hare » August 6th, 2011, 9:46 am

David Lim wrote:I see. Does that mean that "I rejoice the [rejoicing] over you" is quite an accurate representation, since "το εφ υμιν" functions like an adverb that modifies the action specified by "χαιρω"? If it is so, it actually seems quite natural as a circumlocution to me, although in English such repetitive constructions are rare. Reminds me of "in the judgement which you judge you will be judged" haha..
No, Carl is not saying that τὸ in this construction is a reduction of "the rejoicing."

Are you familiar with Spanish? When you have an adjective in Spanish, you learn that it generally comes in two forms - masculine and feminine. For example, rojo (masc.) and roja (fem.) for "red." However, if you want to talk about "that which is red," you can actually turn it into a neuter phrase and use lo as a type of article - lo rojo. Also, lo mío "that which is mine" and lo necesario "that which is necessary." This is seen in the Genesis narrative in Spanish, where lo seco is often used to translate "the dry ground" - "that which is dry."

The τὸ is functioning in this way, to turn the prepositional phrase into a sort of noun expression - "what which concerns you." In Spanish, at least in my experience, this doesn't happen with prepositional phrases, though it's common enough with adjectives (normally, for other structures you simply use lo que with a verbal phrase).

"I rejoice at that which concerns you." = "I rejoice concerning you."
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David Lim
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Re: Rom 16:19 - χαιρω το εφ υμιν

Post by David Lim » August 6th, 2011, 12:48 pm

Jason Hare wrote:
David Lim wrote:I see. Does that mean that "I rejoice the [rejoicing] over you" is quite an accurate representation, since "το εφ υμιν" functions like an adverb that modifies the action specified by "χαιρω"? If it is so, it actually seems quite natural as a circumlocution to me, although in English such repetitive constructions are rare. Reminds me of "in the judgement which you judge you will be judged" haha..
No, Carl is not saying that τὸ in this construction is a reduction of "the rejoicing."

Are you familiar with Spanish? When you have an adjective in Spanish, you learn that it generally comes in two forms - masculine and feminine. For example, rojo (masc.) and roja (fem.) for "red." However, if you want to talk about "that which is red," you can actually turn it into a neuter phrase and use lo as a type of article - lo rojo. Also, lo mío "that which is mine" and lo necesario "that which is necessary." This is seen in the Genesis narrative in Spanish, where lo seco is often used to translate "the dry ground" - "that which is dry."

The τὸ is functioning in this way, to turn the prepositional phrase into a sort of noun expression - "what which concerns you." In Spanish, at least in my experience, this doesn't happen with prepositional phrases, though it's common enough with adjectives (normally, for other structures you simply use lo que with a verbal phrase).

"I rejoice at that which concerns you." = "I rejoice concerning you."
I understand that "το εφ υμιν" can be a "substantivised" phrase meaning "that which is over (on account of) you", but can "χαιρω" really accept such a noun phrase as an object? If not, it sounds a little broken to me: "that which concerns you.. I rejoice". Haha..
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Jason Hare
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Re: Rom 16:19 - χαιρω το εφ υμιν

Post by Jason Hare » August 6th, 2011, 7:11 pm

David Lim wrote:I understand that "το εφ υμιν" can be a "substantivised" phrase meaning "that which is over (on account of) you", but can "χαιρω" really accept such a noun phrase as an object? If not, it sounds a little broken to me: "that which concerns you.. I rejoice". Haha..
For the range of usage, we have lexica. Have you checked LSJ regarding the usage of χαίρω?
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Re: Rom 16:19 - χαιρω το εφ υμιν

Post by David Lim » August 6th, 2011, 10:13 pm

Jason Hare wrote:
David Lim wrote:I understand that "το εφ υμιν" can be a "substantivised" phrase meaning "that which is over (on account of) you", but can "χαιρω" really accept such a noun phrase as an object? If not, it sounds a little broken to me: "that which concerns you.. I rejoice". Haha..
For the range of usage, we have lexica. Have you checked LSJ regarding the usage of χαίρω?
Yes, and I went through the entry again but I can't find any mention of usage with an accusative object.. Can you point me to it if I missed it?
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