What is purpose and meaning of τῇ in Gal 2:20?

How do I work out the meaning of a Greek text? How can I best understand the forms and vocabulary in this particular text?
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: What is purpose and meaning of τῇ in Gal 2:20?

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Let me remove the particle δέ and give you some phrases to consider. What does each of these mean?

1. ζῶ
2. ζῶ οὐκέτι
3. ζῶ οὐκέτι ἐγώ

I'll add δέ back later, linking it to other parts of the context.

P.S. What is your background in Greek?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Paul Rittman
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Re: What is purpose and meaning of τῇ in Gal 2:20?

Post by Paul Rittman »

My background is in the 90s, I took college Greek classes, a year I believe. In other words, I know just enough to be dangerous. :)

1. {I} live
2. {I} no longer live
3. I no longer live

Jonathan Robie wrote: July 20th, 2023, 11:40 am Let me remove the particle δέ and give you some phrases to consider. What does each of these mean?

1. ζῶ
2. ζῶ οὐκέτι
3. ζῶ οὐκέτι ἐγώ

I'll add δέ back later, linking it to other parts of the context.

P.S. What is your background in Greek?
Jonathan Robie
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Re: What is purpose and meaning of τῇ in Gal 2:20?

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Paul Rittman wrote: July 20th, 2023, 12:26 pm My background is in the 90s, I took college Greek classes, a year I believe. In other words, I know just enough to be dangerous. :)

1. {I} live
2. {I} no longer live
3. I no longer live
Thanks. That helps me know how to answer your question.

ζῶ οὐκέτι and ζῶ οὐκέτι ἐγώ each mean "I no longer live", so why add the ἐγώ? When you express the subject, you are doing that for a reason, perhaps to make it more emphatic, perhaps to contrast it to something else. Let's take this back to verse 19:

Χριστῷ συνεσταύρωμαι·
- ζῶ δὲ οὐκέτι ἐγώ
- ζῇ δὲ ἐν ἐμοὶ Χριστός

ἐν πίστει ζῶ τῇ τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ἀγαπήσαντός με καὶ παραδόντος ἑαυτὸν ὑπὲρ ἐμοῦ.

This is all grounded in being crucified in Christ. What does that mean?

The two δἐ particles basically tell you to line those two bullet points up against each other, however you translate it into English. It contrasts ζῶ δὲ οὐκέτι ἐγώ with ζῇ δὲ ἐν ἐμοὶ Χριστός. ζῶ/ζῇ is fronted because that is what it is talking about, life. The subjects are expressed because they are central to what is being said about this life.

Does that make sense?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Paul Rittman
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Re: What is purpose and meaning of τῇ in Gal 2:20?

Post by Paul Rittman »

It absolutely makes sense. Thanks for the detailed presentation. Not arguing that it can't be read that way. Like I said, the modern English translations including even the NKJV read it like that.

But my question is, is it possible to read it the way that the KJV has it? "nevertheless I live; yet not I,..." From my (admittedly dim) knowledge of Greek, what they have done is translated δὲ as "nevertheless," and then translated ζῶ as "I live;" and then looked at the rest of this (οὐκέτι ἐγώ) as its own separate phrase, whence they would have gotten "yet not I."

Is this permissible in Greek, or did they simply take liberties with the text, and deviate from a more literal, word for word translation like they normally would do?

Jonathan Robie wrote: July 20th, 2023, 1:17 pm Thanks. That helps me know how to answer your question.

ζῶ οὐκέτι and ζῶ οὐκέτι ἐγώ each mean "I no longer live", so why add the ἐγώ? When you express the subject, you are doing that for a reason, perhaps to make it more emphatic, perhaps to contrast it to something else. Let's take this back to verse 19:

Χριστῷ συνεσταύρωμαι·
- ζῶ δὲ οὐκέτι ἐγώ
- ζῇ δὲ ἐν ἐμοὶ Χριστός

ἐν πίστει ζῶ τῇ τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ἀγαπήσαντός με καὶ παραδόντος ἑαυτὸν ὑπὲρ ἐμοῦ.

This is all grounded in being crucified in Christ. What does that mean?

The two δἐ particles basically tell you to line those two bullet points up against each other, however you translate it into English. It contrasts ζῶ δὲ οὐκέτι ἐγώ with ζῇ δὲ ἐν ἐμοὶ Χριστός. ζῶ/ζῇ is fronted because that is what it is talking about, life. The subjects are expressed because they are central to what is being said about this life.

Does that make sense?
Jonathan Robie
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Re: What is purpose and meaning of τῇ in Gal 2:20?

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Paul Rittman wrote: July 20th, 2023, 2:48 pm But my question is, is it possible to read it the way that the KJV has it? "nevertheless I live; yet not I,..." From my (admittedly dim) knowledge of Greek, what they have done is translated δὲ as "nevertheless," and then translated ζῶ as "I live;" and then looked at the rest of this (οὐκέτι ἐγώ) as its own separate phrase, whence they would have gotten "yet not I."

Is this permissible in Greek, or did they simply take liberties with the text, and deviate from a more literal, word for word translation like they normally would do?
I don't particularly care for the KJV translation of this verse. I think most modern translations capture it better.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Paul Rittman
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Re: What is purpose and meaning of τῇ in Gal 2:20?

Post by Paul Rittman »

OK, thanks. Your posts have been helpful.
Jonathan Robie wrote: July 20th, 2023, 4:33 pm I don't particularly care for the KJV translation of this verse. I think most modern translations capture it better.
Eeli Kaikkonen
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Re: What is purpose and meaning of τῇ in Gal 2:20?

Post by Eeli Kaikkonen »

Paul Rittman wrote: July 20th, 2023, 2:48 pm But my question is, is it possible to read it the way that the KJV has it? "nevertheless I live; yet not I,..." From my (admittedly dim) knowledge of Greek, what they have done is translated δὲ as "nevertheless," and then translated ζῶ as "I live;" and then looked at the rest of this (οὐκέτι ἐγώ) as its own separate phrase, whence they would have gotten "yet not I."

Is this permissible in Greek, or did they simply take liberties with the text, and deviate from a more literal, word for word translation like they normally would do?
You are still too much captive of English translation. Small words like και and δε are sometimes notoriously difficult to translate. They just don't correspond directly with "and" and "but" or something else. I recommend Discourse Grammar of the Greek New Testament by Steven E. Runge (who every now and then comments here). When talking about δε he first cites BDAG, the most authoritative lexicon, and then says: "...the connective δέ does not mark the presence of semantic discontinuity, as BDAG claims". (Semantic discontinuity, like in English "but".) Later he explains that δέ signals "new development": "The use of δέ represents the writer's choice to explicitly signal that what follows is a new, distinct development in the story of argument, based on how the writer conceived of it."

Therefore you have to read the preceding discourse, too, and try to understand how those little words, discourse markers called conjunctions, reveal the flow of thought.

(SBLGNT)
  • ἐγὼ γὰρ διὰ νόμου νόμῳ ἀπέθανον ἵνα θεῷ ζήσω· Χριστῷ συνεσταύρωμαι·
  • ζῶ δὲ οὐκέτι ἐγώ
  • ζῇ δὲ ἐν ἐμοὶ Χριστός
  • δὲ νῦν ζῶ ἐν σαρκί, ἐν πίστει ζῶ...
Also, as Jonathan Robie said, ἐγώ and Χριστός are parallel and contrasted. To paraphrase, "I have died to live to God, being crucified with Christ; it is no more I who lives; it is Christ who lives in me". Then you can try to use more idiomatic English to try to capture the meaning or nuance of several instances of δέ, but it's not really fair to say that one word in English translation would be right and another wrong. That's the nature of human language: words in two languages rarely correlate 1:1.

And why should you translate at all? Rather, why don't you internalize how Paul expresses his thoughts in Koine? (Not that I could do that very well myself...)
Jonathan Robie
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Re: What is purpose and meaning of τῇ in Gal 2:20?

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: July 21st, 2023, 1:45 pm
Paul Rittman wrote: July 20th, 2023, 2:48 pm But my question is, is it possible to read it the way that the KJV has it? "nevertheless I live; yet not I,..." From my (admittedly dim) knowledge of Greek, what they have done is translated δὲ as "nevertheless," and then translated ζῶ as "I live;" and then looked at the rest of this (οὐκέτι ἐγώ) as its own separate phrase, whence they would have gotten "yet not I."

Is this permissible in Greek, or did they simply take liberties with the text, and deviate from a more literal, word for word translation like they normally would do?
You are still too much captive of English translation. Small words like και and δε are sometimes notoriously difficult to translate. They just don't correspond directly with "and" and "but" or something else. I recommend Discourse Grammar of the Greek New Testament by Steven E. Runge (who every now and then comments here). When talking about δε he first cites BDAG, the most authoritative lexicon, and then says: "...the connective δέ does not mark the presence of semantic discontinuity, as BDAG claims". (Semantic discontinuity, like in English "but".) Later he explains that δέ signals "new development": "The use of δέ represents the writer's choice to explicitly signal that what follows is a new, distinct development in the story of argument, based on how the writer conceived of it."
I agree wholeheartedly with this recommendation. FWIW, that's precisely why I used the bullet point, it indicates something new without saying exactly what the relationship is to the thing that precedes.
Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: July 21st, 2023, 1:45 pmTherefore you have to read the preceding discourse, too
Because if you don't, you don't know what the "new development" is building on.
Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: July 21st, 2023, 1:45 pm... and try to understand how those little words, discourse markers called conjunctions, reveal the flow of thought.
Of course, B-Greek is a good place to post questions about that.
Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: July 21st, 2023, 1:45 pm(SBLGNT)
  • ἐγὼ γὰρ διὰ νόμου νόμῳ ἀπέθανον ἵνα θεῷ ζήσω· Χριστῷ συνεσταύρωμαι·
  • ζῶ δὲ οὐκέτι ἐγώ
  • ζῇ δὲ ἐν ἐμοὶ Χριστός
  • δὲ νῦν ζῶ ἐν σαρκί, ἐν πίστει ζῶ...
Also, as Jonathan Robie said, ἐγώ and Χριστός are parallel and contrasted. To paraphrase, "I have died to live to God, being crucified with Christ; it is no more I who lives; it is Christ who lives in me". Then you can try to use more idiomatic English to try to capture the meaning or nuance of several instances of δέ, but it's not really fair to say that one word in English translation would be right and another wrong. That's the nature of human language: words in two languages rarely correlate 1:1.
Especially those little words, they rarely correlate 1:1. And they are so important. You need to understand their meaning in context.
... it's not really fair to say that one word in English translation would be right and another wrong
I think you are saying that you shouldn't judge this one word at a time? Obviously, if someone translates ζῶ as "pickle", that's wrong. I think we are saying the same thing, but let me put it this way:

For a lot of nouns, it's generally straightforward. For discourse markers like δέ, you really have to understand the Greek in context, then think about how to say the same thing in English.

A translation that is less "word-for-word" can be just as literal, and a translation that uses a more natural English word order rather than trying to follow the word order of the Greek can be just as literal. We communicate in phrases and clauses and sentences, not in a sequence of individual words.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
mikeatnip
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Re: What is purpose and meaning of τῇ in Gal 2:20?

Post by mikeatnip »

Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: July 21st, 2023, 1:45 pm Small words like και and δε are sometimes notoriously difficult to translate. They just don't correspond directly with "and" and "but" or something else. I recommend Discourse Grammar of the Greek New Testament by Steven E. Runge (who every now and then comments here). When talking about δε he first cites BDAG, the most authoritative lexicon, and then says: "...the connective δέ does not mark the presence of semantic discontinuity, as BDAG claims". (Semantic discontinuity, like in English "but".) Later he explains that δέ signals "new development": "The use of δέ represents the writer's choice to explicitly signal that what follows is a new, distinct development in the story of argument, based on how the writer conceived of it."
I have found that thinking of και in the sense of "also/plus" and δε in the sense of "then/next" gives me a better starting place than "and" and "but." This is my takeaway (one of them) from Runge's book, which helped me much.
N.B. that "also/plus" and "then/next" are not always the correct way to translate them, just a good starting point, for me. IF I remember right, he uses a graphical illustration of:
this και this και this και this και this.
this
δε this
δε this
δε this
δε this
Mike Atnip
May I not debate presumptuously; may I not be silent impudently. May I learn beneficial speech; may I acquire discerning silence. -Ephrem the Syrian
Jonathan Robie
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Re: What is purpose and meaning of τῇ in Gal 2:20?

Post by Jonathan Robie »

mikeatnip wrote: July 22nd, 2023, 8:10 pm IF I remember right, he [Steve Runge] uses a graphical illustration of:

this και this και this και this και this.
this
δε this
δε this
δε this
δε this
That's really helpful, Mike. It's a lot clearer than all the fancy words ;->

I'll have to remember to use this next time I answer a question like this.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
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