1st Person Singular and Plural Imperfect for λέγειν

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Wes Wood
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1st Person Singular and Plural Imperfect for λέγειν

Post by Wes Wood » June 28th, 2015, 2:21 pm

Are these forms of λέγειν correct? 1st person singular imperfect indicative ἐλέγομην and 1st person plural indicative ἐλεγόμεθα

If they aren't, what should they be? Do you know of any text that contains these words?
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

cwconrad
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Re: 1st Person Singular and Plural Imperfect for λέγειν

Post by cwconrad » June 28th, 2015, 2:48 pm

Wes Wood wrote:Are these forms of λέγειν correct? 1st person singular imperfect indicative ἐλέγομην and 1st person plural indicative ἐλεγόμεθα

If they aren't, what should they be? Do you know of any text that contains these words?
For λέγειν, the forms are active voice: ἔλεγον/ἔλεγες/ἔλεγε(ν), ἐλέγομεν,ἑλέγετε,ἔλεγον.
You'll find paradigms of standard -ω verbs in Smyth, §§832ff.
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Wes Wood
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Re: 1st Person Singular and Plural Imperfect for λέγειν

Post by Wes Wood » June 28th, 2015, 3:55 pm

Edit: In my original post I intended to ask if those forms were the correct imperfect mid/pass for the 1st person singular and 1st person plural verbs. Please, forgive my oversight. I feel like I have seen imperfect middle/passive forms for this verb before, but I can't find these particular forms.
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

cwconrad
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Re: 1st Person Singular and Plural Imperfect for λέγειν

Post by cwconrad » June 28th, 2015, 4:12 pm

Wes Wood wrote:How can you determine which forms of a verb are used and which ones aren't? I feel like I have seen imperfect middle/passive forms for this verb before. Edit: In my original post I intended to ask about imperfect mid/pass for both verbs. Please, forgive my oversight.
Well, the verb διαλέγεσθαι based on the same root is always middle -- it involves reciprocal interaction, and reciprocal verbs generally do have middle forms. διελεγόμην, διελέγου, διελέγετο, διελεγόμεθα, διελέεσθε, διελέγοντο.
An unabridged lexicon will usually tell you which forms are used and which are not -- and how they're used. In my opinion, one of the things that pedagogues don't spend enough time on is teaching students of ancient Greek how to use a lexicon; a student's natural tendency is to hasten down to the meanings and hunt for the first gloss that seems to fit the context for the word being looked up in the lexicon. Lexicons are potentially a great source of information about words. None is ever quite complete or as fully adequate as one might hope, but lexical entries deserve some study rather than a once-over glazed-eye scan. The better dictionaries/lexicons provide texts showing contexts of word-usage; those texts need some study.

I don't think I've ever heard or read about such a thing, but it seems to me that it would be a fine thing for colleges and universities that offer a major in Greek to have a one-semester course in phonology, morphology, and reference works -- and how to make the best use of them.
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Wes Wood
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Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: 1st Person Singular and Plural Imperfect for λέγειν

Post by Wes Wood » June 28th, 2015, 4:32 pm

cwconrad wrote:I don't think I've ever heard or read about such a thing, but it seems to me that it would be a fine thing for colleges and universities that offer a major in Greek to have a one-semester course in phonology, morphology, and reference works -- and how to make the best use of them.
I strongly agree with you, but, sadly :cry: , Classics offerings of any kind are drying up. I believe I have mentioned before that the only schools near where I live that offered Master's degrees in Classical Studies are no longer doing so. (Ole Miss and Vanderbilt, which hasn't to my knowledge officially closed the program but they haven't accepted applications to the program in several years now.)
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Jonathan Robie
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Re: 1st Person Singular and Plural Imperfect for λέγειν

Post by Jonathan Robie » June 28th, 2015, 5:05 pm

Wes Wood wrote:How can you determine which forms of a verb are used and which ones aren't? I feel like I have seen imperfect middle/passive forms for this verb before. Edit: In my original post I intended to ask about imperfect mid/pass for both verbs. Please, forgive my oversight.
There are several ways to do this.
  • For common verbs, use Rod Decker's Morphology Catalog of Common Koine Verbs. (He also has a rather nice -ω verb chart, if you are looking for something like that too.)
  • You can look up any verb on laparola.net/greco, each dictionary entry shows the forms that exist. For instance, for εἰμί, look at all the forms at the end of the page, linked to occurrences in the Greek New Testament.
  • You can do the same thing using the kata biblon lexicon. Bonus: this covers the Septuagint too, which is really useful when looking for verb forms that occur on a chart but not in the GNT.
  • You can do the same thing using biblehub.com. Here is their entry for εἰμί
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

cwconrad
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Re: 1st Person Singular and Plural Imperfect for λέγειν

Post by cwconrad » June 28th, 2015, 5:42 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:For common verbs, use Rod Decker's Morphology Catalog of Common Koine Verbs. (He also has a rather nice -ω verb chart, if you are looking for something like that too.)
It's very gratifying to know that so many of these good things that Rod prepared remain available to those who survive his all-too-early passing.
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: 1st Person Singular and Plural Imperfect for λέγειν

Post by Stephen Hughes » June 29th, 2015, 2:38 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:You can do the same thing using the kata biblon lexicon. Bonus: this covers the Septuagint too, which is really useful when looking for verb forms that occur on a chart but not in the GNT.
The LXX on that site is a work in progress, and data you obtain from it should be cross-checked.
Thomas Moore (Kata Biblon site owner) in private correspondence (29/4/2013) wrote: the LXX lexicon is still incomplete.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

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