Progress log

Re: Progress log

Postby Penelope Kappa » October 16th, 2013, 2:12 am

Please feel free to discuss about such things. Such debates are always helpful for the rest of us.
I am doing this for didactic purposes right now, since my passive language skills are pretty good, but my active ones are shameful.

I'm sorry, but I had to do it on paper. Old school :D
http://logoskaieikona.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/fosilaron-001.jpg
It's not finished, I am still reading about the participles.

The more you do this the faster and easier it gets. After the syntax you deal with the grammar.
I need a lot of studying to do. Any mistakes (and there will be many) feel free to point out, please.

I'll try to find a way to do this on the computer, but it takes a lot of time on screen!
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An example from my high school years

Postby Penelope Kappa » October 16th, 2013, 5:55 am

This is from an old θεματογραφία I used at school. This is what a poor text looked like after you got your hands on it. It doesn't look pretty, but it's useful. We were encouraged to write on those books, as they were not the kind you put in your bookcase for show: they were hard working soldiers. I was very moved to see them again.

I have a few of those books, and they are full of useful info on each text, specifically for learning purposes. I may continue using them. The only problem: it's attic greek. Probably I'll try both NT and attic.

Thank God I never got rid of them like all the math books :twisted: Between school, grandma and the internet, I don't have to buy anything.


http://logoskaieikona.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/thematografia-001.jpg?w=730
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Re: Progress log

Postby Jonathan Robie » October 16th, 2013, 8:40 am

Penelope Kappa wrote:I'll try to find a way to do this on the computer, but it takes a lot of time on screen!


Do it on paper, if you prefer, just do it!

If you are willing, it would be nice if you could upload your work as attachments, so that they are available here even if your server goes away, and so that they can be displayed in the message.

fosilaron-001.jpg
fosilaron-001.jpg (147.88 KiB) Viewed 302 times
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: An example from my high school years

Postby Jonathan Robie » October 16th, 2013, 8:52 am

Penelope Kappa wrote:This is from an old θεματογραφία I used at school. This is what a poor text looked like after you got your hands on it. It doesn't look pretty, but it's useful. We were encouraged to write on those books, as they were not the kind you put in your bookcase for show: they were hard working soldiers. I was very moved to see them again.

I have a few of those books, and they are full of useful info on each text, specifically for learning purposes. I may continue using them. The only problem: it's attic greek. Probably I'll try both NT and attic.

Thank God I never got rid of them like all the math books :twisted: Between school, grandma and the internet, I don't have to buy anything.

http://logoskaieikona.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/thematografia-001.jpg?w=730


thematografia-001.jpg
thematografia-001.jpg (180.39 KiB) Viewed 297 times


This is really interesting.

Some of us are working on ways to use computers to help people interpret texts, while maintaining focus on the text itself. Please do hang in here and teach us how you do this! One thing I personally will struggle with - I have mostly seen printed Greek, not Greek handwriting, so I may have to ask you to help me read some of your notes.

Would it be possible to take this as an example and walk us through what all the markings mean?

I don't see a problem with using Attic Greek examples here, if that's easier for showing us how. And we will, of course, help you step through Hellenistic examples here too.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: Progress log

Postby Penelope Kappa » October 17th, 2013, 2:23 am

Ok, I will be using attachments for texts.

I can't really teach anyone, I can only share my own uncertain road back to reading ancient texts. In the example I gave you, there are terms that I don't remember what they mean anymore. I seriously need to study syntax and grammar.

Here is what I remember though.

The first thing to do, after you read the text a couple of times to see what you understand, is to look for verbs that you underline and mark Ρ for ρημα. Then circle all little words that introduce any kind if sentence, γαρ, διοτι, etc. Then you try to find the sentences themselves. I used this sceme

[ΚΥΡΙΑ (ΔΕΥΤΕΡΕΥΟΥΣΑ < δευτερευουσα προταση> ΠΡΟΤΑΣΗ) ΠΡΟΤΑΣΗ] and so on, using whatever markings you feel comfortable with. It may be less complicated but you get the idea. You specify what each sentence is, ειδική , αιτιολογική etc.

Then you use any way you want to mark objects, subjects, participles and their kind/subjects etc. Tis way you work your way through the entire text.

At first (this is where I am now), maybe you will need your syntax book every step of the way. If you have to decide what kind of a genitive this is, then you read the rules for genitive. So you learn, and of course it's the meaning you are really looking for, which you think about every step of the way. That's my learning process, but others might prefer another.

I found this online
http://www.google.gr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fi-filologos.gr%2FMETHODOLOGIA%2520ANALYSIS%2520AGNOSTOU%2520THEMATOS.doc&ei=pXlfUtTMBKOM4ASMmoG4CQ&usg=AFQjCNEED8nYUY7u1YR2GNj13X7YmB3RFQ&bvm=bv.54176721,d.bGE
which opens a doc file: ΜΕΘΟΔΟΛΟΓΙΑ ΑΝΑΛΥΣΗΣ ΑΓΝΩΣΤΟΥ ΘΕΜΑΤΟΣ ΣΤΑ ΑΡΧΑΙΑ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΑ, for students. So I guess they still use the same technique.

It's not your fault you don't understand greek handwriting, by the way!
The notes are something like this
γεν. διαρ.= γεική διαιρετική
επιθ. πρ. = επιθετικός προσδιορισμός
εμπρ. του μεσου= εμπροθετος προσδιορισμός του μεσου

and so on.

In short, these are short notes that each student uses in order to mark the syntax, and they are up to you. You don't follow a stenography of some kind. Just your notes. And you are supposed to to that on the page.

The grammar analysis comes after.

I am sorry I can't be more scientific about this, and if there are more questions I'll try to answer them!

Thanks for all the encouragement, I can really use it.
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Re: Progress log

Postby Paul-Nitz » October 18th, 2013, 11:07 am


Great hymn. Thanks. Where is it from?
What are the underlined words? If you will get to that in your log, then I'm happy to wait.

Φῶς ἱλαρὸν ἁγίας δόξης ἀθανάτου Πατρός,
οὐρανίου, ἁγίου, μάκαρος, Ἰησοῦ Χριστέ,
ἐλθόντες ἐπὶ τὴν ἡλίου δύσιν, ἰδόντες φῶς ἑσπερινόν,
ὑμνοῦμεν Πατέρα, Υἱόν, καὶ ἅγιον Πνεῦμα, Θεόν.
Ἄξιόν σε ἐν πᾶσι καιροῖς ὑμνεῖσθαι φωναῖς αἰσίαις,
Υἱὲ Θεοῦ, ζωὴν ὁ διδούς· διὸ ὁ κόσμος σὲ δοξάζει.
Paul D. Nitz - Lilongwe Malawi
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Re: Progress log

Postby Penelope Kappa » October 18th, 2013, 12:12 pm

Hi Paul!

I think that:

ἑσπερινόν is an adjective that refers to φῶς, meaning evening light. Singular, neutral, accusative case, as φῶς is the object of ἰδόντες.

αἰσίαις is an adjective that refers to φωναῖς, meaning auspicious/happy voices. Plural, female, dative case, as φωναῖς is a dative, and, I believe, it shows the manner, in which way to praise (ὑμνεῖσθαι ).

I probably forget something. If I made a mistake, all help is more than welcome!
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Re: Progress log

Postby Penelope Kappa » October 18th, 2013, 12:19 pm

Paul-Nitz wrote:
Great hymn. Thanks. Where is it from?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phos_Hilaron

That's all I know myself. It is a favourite though. During the 2000 new year's eve, it was one of the songs sung on behalf of Greece.

Go to 3:15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0D7AOWM62G4
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Re: Progress log

Postby Paul-Nitz » October 18th, 2013, 2:10 pm

Penelope Kappa wrote:Go to 3:15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0D7AOWM62G4


That cue marker at 3 minutes 15 seconds is an important detail. I listened for 3 minutes trying with every fiber to understand the words and match them to the text of the hymn. Hmmm. I should have noted that 3:15!!!
Paul D. Nitz - Lilongwe Malawi
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