Need advice: taking Greek course on Romans

Need advice: taking Greek course on Romans

Postby GlennDean » May 29th, 2012, 8:45 pm

Hi:

I'm planning on taking a 2nd year seminary course on the greek contained in the Book of Romans Ch 1-thru-8. To get a head start on the course, I've started translating 1:1-21 and am doing pretty horrible on it. Here's my results on these first 21 verses of Romans:

Had critical issues translating the verse on verses 6, 12, 14, 15, 20 (I'd give myself a grade of F on these verses)

Had lots of problems translating the verse on verses 13, 18, 19, 21 (I'd give myself a grade of D or C on these verses)

I'm not even sure how to pose my question, but do you think I have even a ghost of a chance of surviving the course given these results? May be a secondary question would be, since the course starts Aug 27, 2012, possibly I can improve enough to give myself a fighting chance in the course?
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Re: Need advice: taking Greek course on Romans

Postby MAubrey » May 29th, 2012, 9:57 pm

I would imagine that you have far more than one question.

How about starting with one at a time though.

Maybe we should look at verses 5-6 together:

διʼ οὗ ἐλάβομεν χάριν καὶ ἀποστολὴν εἰς ὑπακοὴν πίστεως ἐν πᾶσιν τοῖς ἔθνεσιν ὑπὲρ τοῦ ὀνόματος αὐτοῦ, 6 ἐν οἷς ἐστε καὶ ὑμεῖς κλητοὶ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

Is it the relative clause ἐν οἷς that's throwing you?

Or the καὶ in the middle of the clause?
Mike Aubrey
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Re: Need advice: taking Greek course on Romans

Postby GlennDean » May 29th, 2012, 10:26 pm

Hi Mike:

I think I have many problems, but on Verse 6 itself my translation came out to be:

"also in which you are called Jesus Christ"

Upon looking at my Interlinear, I realize that ἐν should have been interpreted as "amongst" and that between "called" and "Jesus Christ" I needed to insert "to belong to" but how was I suppose to know that?? When I read the Interlinear's translation it goes "amongst whom you are also called to belong to Jesus Christ".

So I wonder how far I am to actually being able to translate verses 6, and 12, 14, 15, 20?
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Re: Need advice: taking Greek course on Romans

Postby David Lim » May 30th, 2012, 1:25 am

GlennDean wrote:I think I have many problems, but on Verse 6 itself my translation came out to be:

"also in which you are called Jesus Christ"

Upon looking at my Interlinear, I realize that ἐν should have been interpreted as "amongst" and that between "called" and "Jesus Christ" I needed to insert "to belong to" but how was I suppose to know that?? When I read the Interlinear's translation it goes "amongst whom you are also called to belong to Jesus Christ".


As Mike guessed I think you do not understand both "εν οις" and "και". "οις" is plural and "εν" typically means "among" when used with a plural that refers to many individuals. This is confirmed by "οις" itself referring to "πασιν τοις εθνεσιν". "και" is not always a conjunction that joins two clauses. Sometimes it is used in "και X" to mean that "X" is additional. "και υμεις" is the subject of "εστε" and means that "not only did many among all the nations obey in faith, you (among them) did too". Finally, the phrase "to belong to" is not in the Greek text. "κλητοι ιησου χριστου" is the predicate of "εστε" and simply means "called [ones] of Jesus Christ". The genitive can mean one of many different things, and it has to be determined from the context. In this case it does indeed imply possession, meaning "called [ones] [to be] of Jesus Christ". I think many of us would suggest that you work through a grammar instead of an inter-linear, such as http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/project/funk-grammar/ ("pre-alpha" is the HTML version but has OCR errors).
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Re: Need advice: taking Greek course on Romans

Postby George F Somsel » May 30th, 2012, 1:34 am

ἐν οἷς ἐστε καὶ ὑμεῖς κλητοὶ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

Glen Dean wrote:
I think I have many problems, but on Verse 6 itself my translation came out to be:

"also in which you are called Jesus Christ"


Note that Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ is in the genitive, not the accusative, so it could not be "you are called Jesus Christ." The question is "What is the function of the genitive here?" I would suggest that it indicates agency. While I would prefer to quote some other grammarian, I will cite Wallace which is much used at the moment.

5. Genitive of Agency [by]
a. Definition
The genitive substantive indicates the personal agent by whom the action in view is accomplished. It is almost always related to a verbal adjective that is typically used as a substantive and has the characteristically passive ending -τος. The usage is fairly rare.


Wallace, Daniel B. Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics - Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament, p 126, Zondervan Publishing House and Galaxie Software, 1999.

It would thus be "among whom you are called by Jesus Christ."
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Re: Need advice: taking Greek course on Romans

Postby David Lim » May 30th, 2012, 1:49 am

George F Somsel wrote:Note that Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ is in the genitive, not the accusative, so it could not be "you are called Jesus Christ." The question is "What is the function of the genitive here?" I would suggest that it indicates agency. [...]

It would thus be "among whom you are called by Jesus Christ."


George's interpretation is another likely possibility. Personally I think this particular phrase in Rom 1 somewhat denotes both, because the context suggests that Jesus Christ is both the one who calls and the one to whom those called belong. ASV and ESV understand the genitive to denote possession, while Darby's translation and NKJV and NASB render the phrase as "the called of Jesus Christ", probably so as to be deliberately vague.
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Re: Need advice: taking Greek course on Romans

Postby Barry Hofstetter » May 30th, 2012, 1:51 am

Glen, it disturbs me that you have to resort to an interlinear. It sounds like you might want to start with a review of the basics, both paradigms and basic syntax. The ability to identify the case ending of a noun or the form of a verb is essential. The goal is for it to become automatic, but it sounds like you need more practice at the beginning level.

And get rid of the interlinear. It only puts your immortal soul (metaphorically speaking) in danger.

BTW, for George, I would retrovert Glen's translation with a predicate nominative, not an accusative. :?
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Re: Need advice: taking Greek course on Romans

Postby GlennDean » May 30th, 2012, 9:06 am

Thank-you everyone for the great advice and comments! What a wake-up call this has been, especially since I missed some fairly basic stuff in verse 6.

Thanks again,

Glenn
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