Sentence Diagramming

Re: Sentence Diagramming

Postby Barry Hofstetter » May 31st, 2013, 9:59 am

I simply want to point out the parsing and diagramming can be useful tools, in the sense that learning the alphabet is a useful tool. In kindergarten or first grade, it is quite appropriate to recite the alphabet and to practice writing it out, but you soon stop doing so, because the purpose of learning the alphabet is to recognize that the letters, strung together in particular orders, make up words...

In other words, parsing and diagramming are activities that you want to ween yourself from as quickly as possible. You don't see third graders reciting the alphabet, and the idea of a 10th grader doing so would raise serious questions. The purpose of these exercises is to help you develop, in the case of parsing, instant and intuitive recognition of forms, so that you don't even have to think about it -- you just know it without consciously articulating it. In the case of diagramming, it's to get a sense of how phrases and clauses in a sentence fit together. But again, this is something that you should begin naturally to pick up from simply regularly reading Greek. I guarantee you that the Greek speakers did not diagram -- they simply hear or read the sentences, just as you are doing with the relatively complex English syntax that I am (deliberately, to make the point) using in this response. The only way to get there is lots of involvement with Greek, especially reading ancient authors, as much as possible. There are other techniques and strategies that can help as well, but most of these involve classroom work. Read lots of Greek, and follow some of the advice already given in this thread.
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Re: Sentence Diagramming

Postby Paul-Nitz » June 2nd, 2013, 5:57 am

When I do sentence diagramming is, it is a way to code the Greek so that it can be rearranged to make sense to the English grammar in my brain. So, for me, it works at counter-purposes to my desire to internalize the structures of Greek.

I very much like Shirley's advice (I wish we could rate users and posts on this forum... I'd be giving her stars galore).


cwconrad wrote:If you want to have Greek like Luke's - read Luke/Acts every day
Read a short passage aloud - let the sounds sink into your brain (and don't get hung up on pronunciation - give it your best shot, and keep on reading). Read it again aloud - slowly. Try to translate it - puzzle out what it means and how the words fit into the sentences. (Grosvernor and Zerwick is a help here). Read it again, aloud - slowly. Notice common phrases - let them become an automatic reflex (you see μετα ταυτα, you say μετα ταυτα, but your brain says "μετα ταυτα - after these things") Read it again, aloud - getting up to speed. Maybe write out and learn a new word from the passage. Stop for the day before you get tired. Repeat a phrase or new word at times during the day. Tomorrow, go on to the next passage.
I'd suggest trying to get a Markan command of Greek first


Now I'm doubting whether I should change my current study. I'm working VERY slowly through Mark. I've been reading from the beginning of Mark daily and only add little bits at a time. What I know, I really know. I can read it fluently and can think it. But is Shirley saying that it would be better to start with Acts? Another recent B-Greek thread (a grading of Biblical books according to difficulty) tells me that Mark's Greek is full of bad grammar. Should I give up on Mark and move over to Luke or Acts?

If I would stick with Mark, it would be nice to have a list of Markan phrases that are not proper Greek. I suppose such a list doesn't exist.
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Re: Sentence Diagramming

Postby cwconrad » June 2nd, 2013, 6:47 am

Paul-Nitz wrote:
I very much like Shirley's advice (I wish we could rate users and posts on this forum... I'd be giving her stars galore). [/size]
[/color]
cwconrad wrote:If you want to have Greek like Luke's - read Luke/Acts every day
Read a short passage aloud - let the sounds sink into your brain (and don't get hung up on pronunciation - give it your best shot, and keep on reading). Read it again aloud - slowly. Try to translate it - puzzle out what it means and how the words fit into the sentences. (Grosvernor and Zerwick is a help here). Read it again, aloud - slowly. Notice common phrases - let them become an automatic reflex (you see μετα ταυτα, you say μετα ταυτα, but your brain says "μετα ταυτα - after these things") Read it again, aloud - getting up to speed. Maybe write out and learn a new word from the passage. Stop for the day before you get tired. Repeat a phrase or new word at times during the day. Tomorrow, go on to the next passage.
I'd suggest trying to get a Markan command of Greek first


Just to get things straight, you've cited Shirley, not me.
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Re: Sentence Diagramming

Postby Shirley Rollinson » June 4th, 2013, 2:53 pm

Paul-Nitz wrote:When I do sentence diagramming is, it is a way to code the Greek so that it can be rearranged to make sense to the English grammar in my brain. So, for me, it works at counter-purposes to my desire to internalize the structures of Greek.

I very much like Shirley's advice (I wish we could rate users and posts on this forum... I'd be giving her stars galore).


cwconrad wrote:If you want to have Greek like Luke's - read Luke/Acts every day
Read a short passage aloud - let the sounds sink into your brain (and don't get hung up on pronunciation - give it your best shot, and keep on reading). Read it again aloud - slowly. Try to translate it - puzzle out what it means and how the words fit into the sentences. (Grosvernor and Zerwick is a help here). Read it again, aloud - slowly. Notice common phrases - let them become an automatic reflex (you see μετα ταυτα, you say μετα ταυτα, but your brain says "μετα ταυτα - after these things") Read it again, aloud - getting up to speed. Maybe write out and learn a new word from the passage. Stop for the day before you get tired. Repeat a phrase or new word at times during the day. Tomorrow, go on to the next passage.
I'd suggest trying to get a Markan command of Greek first


Now I'm doubting whether I should change my current study. I'm working VERY slowly through Mark. I've been reading from the beginning of Mark daily and only add little bits at a time. What I know, I really know. I can read it fluently and can think it. But is Shirley saying that it would be better to start with Acts? Another recent B-Greek thread (a grading of Biblical books according to difficulty) tells me that Mark's Greek is full of bad grammar. Should I give up on Mark and move over to Luke or Acts?

If I would stick with Mark, it would be nice to have a list of Markan phrases that are not proper Greek. I suppose such a list doesn't exist.

Hi Paule ! Stick with Mark for now. My remark about reading Luke/Acts was for someone who said he wanted to "have Greek like Lukes" :-)
And don't get hung up on whether Mark's grammar is "good" or "bad" - it's authentic.
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Re: Sentence Diagramming

Postby Stirling Bartholomew » June 4th, 2013, 3:34 pm

Paul-Nitz wrote:
If I would stick with Mark, it would be nice to have a list of Markan phrases that are not proper Greek. I suppose such a list doesn't exist.


You would probably not find two people in this forum who agree on what proper Greek would look like. Mark's greek is readable.
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Re: Sentence Diagramming

Postby A R Wentt Jr » July 5th, 2013, 3:27 pm

cwconrad wrote: I would recommend a careful reading of the Introduction of Funk's BIGHG, "How we understand sentences,"


Dr Conrad, Thank you very much for your recommendation. On your recommendation I purchased the newly released 3rd ed. and it is truly a gem. I am in awe of the authoritative and original approach this work establishes. We are deeply in debt of the scholarship exhibited by this giant of this particular area of knowledge.

I still need the training wheels of the Croy work but I appreciate the validity of the argument pursued by Funk. As you are probably already aware his colleague Lane McGaughey and his team have nearly completed work on his student workbook and two appendices which will accompany the work. The workbook and appendices will be available to the purchasers of the new version and those who already possess BIGHG on the Polebridge Press site.

All students of the Greek should rejoice as a true treasure has been exhumed and is ready to train a new generation of students. Teachers should join in the strain as a special pedagogical tool is ready for consultation and instruction.

Thanks again!

-Allan
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