Progress log

Progress log

Postby Penelope Kappa » October 14th, 2013, 10:45 am

This is a log of my efforts to analyze texts, and in the process learn solid grammar and syntax.

This is how I have learned to deal with ancient texts:

First I underline the verbs
Then I circle the words that introduce secondary sentences
Then I find objects, subjects, participles etc.

That is a pretty sound method that helps with un-complicating some of the most complicated texts.

Each word is recognized, and studied accordingly.

In the end we used to translate into Modern Greek, but I’ll pass any kind of translation. This is strictly a language log, and I don’t want to fall in any theological pitfalls.

I hope a log is ok.
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Ἐπιλύχνιος Εὐχαριστία (Φῶς ἱλαρόν)

Postby Penelope Kappa » October 14th, 2013, 10:50 am

Φῶς ἱλαρὸν ἁγίας δόξης ἀθανάτου Πατρός,
οὐρανίου, ἁγίου, μάκαρος, Ἰησοῦ Χριστέ,
ἐλθόντες ἐπὶ τὴν ἡλίου δύσιν, ἰδόντες φῶς ἑσπερινόν,
ὑμνοῦμεν Πατέρα, Υἱόν, καὶ ἅγιον Πνεῦμα, Θεόν.
Ἄξιόν σε ἐν πᾶσι καιροῖς ὑμνεῖσθαι φωναῖς αἰσίαις,
Υἱὲ Θεοῦ, ζωὴν ὁ διδούς· διὸ ὁ κόσμος σὲ δοξάζει.

Apparently this is one of the most ancient christian hymns, if not the most ancient. It's also one of my favourites. This will be my first text study.

I have to be fair and say right away that I understand it perfectly. It's easy and I bet most of you can understand it too. However, analyzing it is another story...

Please let me know if this sort of log is not appropriate for the b-greek forum.
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Re: Progress log

Postby Jonathan Robie » October 14th, 2013, 12:15 pm

Penelope Kappa wrote:This is how I have learned to deal with ancient texts:

First I underline the verbs
Then I circle the words that introduce secondary sentences
Then I find objects, subjects, participles etc.

That is a pretty sound method that helps with un-complicating some of the most complicated texts.

Each word is recognized, and studied accordingly.


Sure, show us how you do this! You may have already noticed that we have the ability to underline words, make them bold or italic, use different colors to indicate different things, or to use fonts of various sizes.

Perhaps you can rework your method to use what is available here. Alternatively, you can create a graphic and upload it. But it's nice if you can do it using the above techniques, maybe some people will follow your lead.

Penelope Kappa wrote:I hope a log is ok.


Sure, I'm interested in how you proceed.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: Progress log

Postby Penelope Kappa » October 15th, 2013, 2:41 am

This is the way we were taught in high school. To be honest, it's the only way I know, and a better way would always interest me. It does work though. I don't know what kids today are taught, but I have a suspicion it hasn't changed. I have never done it on a computer, only on paper, so I will have to think of a way. What you suggest is a very good idea :)

Verbs

Φῶς ἱλαρὸν ἁγίας δόξης ἀθανάτου Πατρός,
οὐρανίου, ἁγίου, μάκαρος, Ἰησοῦ Χριστέ,
ἐλθόντες ἐπὶ τὴν ἡλίου δύσιν, ἰδόντες φῶς ἑσπερινόν,
ὑμνοῦμεν Πατέρα, Υἱόν, καὶ ἅγιον Πνεῦμα, Θεόν.
Ἄξιόν σε ἐν πᾶσι καιροῖς ὑμνεῖσθαι φωναῖς αἰσίαις,
Υἱὲ Θεοῦ, ζωὴν ὁ διδούς· διὸ ὁ κόσμος σὲ δοξάζει.

ὑμνοῦμεν ( ὑμνῶ, ρήμα, ενεργητική φωνή, ενεστώτας χρόνος, οριστική έγκλιση, πληθυντικός αριθμός, πρώτο πρόσωπο)

Ἄξιόν (ἐστι) (απρόσωπο ρήμα, ενεργητική φωνή, ενεστώτας χρώνος, οριστική έγκλιση, ενικός αριθμός)

δοξάζει (δοξάζω , ρήμα, ενεργητική φωνή, ενεστώτας χρώνος, οριστική έγκλιση, ενικός αριθμός, τρίτο πρόσωπο)

That's just an example, to get things started.
Last edited by Penelope Kappa on October 15th, 2013, 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Progress log

Postby Penelope Kappa » October 15th, 2013, 2:43 am

I have to find the terminolory in english. :mrgreen:
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Re: Progress log

Postby Stephen Carlson » October 15th, 2013, 2:57 am

Penelope Kappa wrote:ὑμνοῦμεν ( ὑμνῶ, ρήμα, ενεργητική φωνή, ενεστώτας χρόνος, οριστική έγκλιση, πληθυντικός αριθμός, πρώτο πρόσωπο)

= ὑμῶν, verb, active voice, present tense, indicative mood, plural number, first person

Penelope Kappa wrote:Ἄξιόν (ἐστι) (απρόσωπο ρήμα, ενεργητική φωνή, ενεστώτας χρώνος, οριστική έγκλιση, ενικός αριθμός)

= impersonal verb, active voice, present tense, indicative mood, singular number.

Penelope Kappa wrote:δοξάζει (δοξάζω , ρήμα, ενεργητική φωνή, ενεστώτας χρώνος, οριστική έγκλιση, ενικός αριθμός, τρίτο πρόσωπο)

= δοξάζω, verb, active voice, present tense, indicative mood, singular number, third person

Penelope Kappa wrote:I have to find the terminolory in english.

Sure, and I hope this reply helps, but I know that a number of people here would actually prefer to see the traditional grammatical terms in Greek.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D. (Duke, New Testament)
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Re: Progress log

Postby Penelope Kappa » October 15th, 2013, 3:24 am

Thank you so much!
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Re: Progress log

Postby Penelope Kappa » October 15th, 2013, 5:48 am

It's χρόνος,not χρώνος...
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Re: Progress log

Postby Barry Hofstetter » October 15th, 2013, 7:35 am

Penelope Kappa wrote:This is a log of my efforts to analyze texts, and in the process learn solid grammar and syntax.

This is how I have learned to deal with ancient texts:

First I underline the verbs
Then I circle the words that introduce secondary sentences
Then I find objects, subjects, participles etc.

That is a pretty sound method that helps with un-complicating some of the most complicated texts.

Each word is recognized, and studied accordingly.

In the end we used to translate into Modern Greek, but I’ll pass any kind of translation. This is strictly a language log, and I don’t want to fall in any theological pitfalls.

I hope a log is ok.


Penelope, there is nothing wrong with this approach, and it should be quite helpful as you work through a text. What I want to emphasize, though, and encourage you about, is that this is only a means to an end, which is the ability to read the text for itself, without any conscious need of analysis. You don't do this with modern Greek or (presumably) English. The ancients didn't do it either, unless they were reflecting on grammar or syntax, usually for didactic purposes. I suggest that once you have done your analysis you go back and read through the text. In fact, before you start, read through the text and see how much you understand before you begin your analysis...
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
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Re: Progress log

Postby Jonathan Robie » October 15th, 2013, 9:29 am

Stephen Carlson wrote:Sure, and I hope this reply helps, but I know that a number of people here would actually prefer to see the traditional grammatical terms in Greek.


Absolutely.

A little context. Many of us are searching for ways to understand texts while thinking in Greek.

Some people believe that using grammatical terms in Greek will help - for instance, this is Michael Halcomb's approach, roughly a "Mounce meets Buth" approach, and he uses pretty much the same terms you use, teaching them to native speakers of English. The way you are approaching verbs fits right in here, I am definitely interested interested in the grammatical terms you learned.

Others believe that we should get away from thinking in metalanguage when we can, since that's not what native speakers do. For those people, marking up the text is a great approach, and I'm very curious about the approach you learned.

I hope we don't descend into discussing these approaches here in your log, but I think what you are doing is something we may well learn from.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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