Quoting bible verse in biblical greek

Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Quoting bible verse in biblical greek

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 2nd, 2014, 12:52 pm

Sprucing up your "forgery"
pmander wrote:I have looked at your post, and worked with the texts and tried to make them more easy to read and also "thinner" so they can be beside each other on my back. That means I have cut the lines in different places, trying to use logic and cutting the lines as much as where the scribe has done so.

If you see anything that looks odd or just plainly wrong in the uploaded edits, I would be glad if you let me know.
The centre-justification looks weird. Aim for left and right (and especially left) justification. You ought to make your "scribal hand" look as least like a forgery as possible. To do that pay attention to a few things. The letters on the left side of the text should be well spaced, while those on the right should look like someone was trying to fit things into a space that he saw before him. Something like breathing in at the start of the line with your chest expanding to breathing out at the end of the line with your chest contracting (and if you really try to breathe out a lot, you feel the contractions almost painfully). Proportional justification will be a definite give away that it is a forgery.

Look at your first line of your John 8:12; The fourth letter Ι seems cramped up against the Λ in front of it - spread it out a little. The supralinear stroke needs to be converted (restored) to a well-spaced Ν. Just say, you want to have 9 characters per line, squash up the last 3 or 4 a bit. Playing with that will improve the overall appearance. Perfect justification on the left - manually adjusted as best as you can on the right by squashing.

The supralinear stroke in the third line should stay as it is. If you end up with an Ν at the end of the line, like you have in line 7, you could reduce that to a supralinear stroke to the right of the text, as in the examples.

The last word of the second line of Revelations 22:5 ΚΑΙ could be abbreviated to the form of the Κ with the barb under it that is found on the 5th line. The fourth line needs the supralinear stroke restored to a Ν. The whole expansion / compression thing is reversed in that line. The supralinear stroke in the last line could be restored to a Ν also.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

pmander
Posts: 23
Joined: July 25th, 2014, 12:44 pm

Re: Quoting bible verse in biblical greek

Post by pmander » August 3rd, 2014, 11:02 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:Sprucing up your "forgery"
:lol:
Stephen Hughes wrote: Look at your first line of your John 8:12; The fourth letter Ι seems cramped up against the Λ in front of it - spread it out a little. The supralinear stroke needs to be converted (restored) to a well-spaced Ν. Just say, you want to have 9 characters per line, squash up the last 3 or 4 a bit. Playing with that will improve the overall appearance. Perfect justification on the left - manually adjusted as best as you can on the right by squashing.

The supralinear stroke in the third line should stay as it is. If you end up with an Ν at the end of the line, like you have in line 7, you could reduce that to a supralinear stroke to the right of the text, as in the examples.

The last word of the second line of Revelations 22:5 ΚΑΙ could be abbreviated to the form of the Κ with the barb under it that is found on the 5th line. The fourth line needs the supralinear stroke restored to a Ν. The whole expansion / compression thing is reversed in that line. The supralinear stroke in the last line could be restored to a Ν also.
Again, thank you. This is very helpful (and probably a pretty good warm up to learning greek after the summer). I used this information and tried to make the verses even thinner, and also have tried to have the about same width on the different texts. The supralinear strokes are a bit confusing, not sure if I should do one every time there is a N at the end, since the scribe didn't always. But I tried to follow your instructions.

Also I tried to cut the words so as many "whole" words are in a line, but I don't know if that is important or not.

If you would have a look that would be terrific. Does the forgery look spruced up?
Attachments
john 8.12 v3.jpg
John 8:12
john 8.12 v3.jpg (48.01 KiB) Viewed 820 times
1joh2.10 v3.jpg
1 John 2:10
1joh2.10 v3.jpg (28.97 KiB) Viewed 820 times
rev22.5 v3.jpg
Rev 22:5
rev22.5 v3.jpg (55.69 KiB) Viewed 820 times
Peter Mänder

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3332
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Quoting bible verse in biblical greek

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 3rd, 2014, 12:08 pm

pmander wrote:Also I tried to cut the words so as many "whole" words are in a line, but I don't know if that is important or not.
Retaining whole words is not important. Cost is important. Right-justify more, instead of having a ragged edge.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

pmander
Posts: 23
Joined: July 25th, 2014, 12:44 pm

Re: Quoting bible verse in biblical greek

Post by pmander » August 5th, 2014, 11:21 am

I dropped Sinaiticus forgery. It looks great on it's own, but for me that beauty was lost when I edited the verses to less letters per line.

So I looked to other texts and used what I have learned here to work up a stencil.

On the first line I had right justification in mind where i let the "N" be as it is, instead of supralinear stroke. This is correct? Otherwise it will look worse, center-justification wise.

Also I have noticed that in both of the codexes I never see any line starting with the letter "υ", is this a correct observation (I've avoided doing that)?

On the third line of Joh 8:12, there are some supralinear strokes which I wonder about. Codex Vaticanus had them like that, but the words look slightly different from sinaiticus. Do they just slightly differ from each other? (Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus) Codex Sinaiticus has "ελαληϲεν ο ιϲ" where Vaticanus has "ελαληϲεν ιϲ", missing an "ο" between "ελαληϲεν" and "ιϲ" but with supralinear stroke above the "ϲ" (fourth letter in third line. Are there any errors there? Or are they both correct (my guess is that the supralinear stroke above the "ϲ" makes up for the "ο" that is in Sinaiticus in some way.)

Also I noticed that the book names of Codex Vaticanus all have one less N in "ΙΩΑΝΝΟΥ" (ΙΩΑΝΟΥ) or "ΙΩΑΝΝHN" (ΙΩΑΝHN). Did it change somewhere along the line to two N's?

Since I am thinking about adding a moderner addition of chapter/verse numbers, I thought I might as well use the more modern spelling of the book names.
Attachments
lightwip1.gif
Uploaded in low quality.
From left to to right:
joh 8:12, 1 joh 2:10 and rev 22:5.
lightwip1.gif (190.07 KiB) Viewed 793 times
Peter Mänder

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3332
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Quoting bible verse in biblical greek

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 5th, 2014, 1:36 pm

Overall it looks good in my opinion. I realise it is a feature of the hand, but you might like to close up the top of the omicrons a bit more. It does look better right-justified and with more letters per line.

NB. You have lost ΟΥΚΕΣΤΙΝ from near the end of the second one. You should check that.

I think the Φ's at the beginning of the 5th and 7th lines (third text) are too far left.

The numbers you have written are positional decimal numerals, the so-called Hindu-Arabic numerals. At the time that the texts were written, those type of numbers were only just beginning to be developed in India. Division into chapters predates division into verses by a long shot, and for sure verse numbering post-date the adoption of Hindu-Arabic numerals by the West.

In the midst of these various historical anachronisms, are you interested in writing the numerals in the way that they would have been written at the time of authourship (but weren't)? The are called the Melesian (or Greek Alphabetic) numeral system.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

pmander
Posts: 23
Joined: July 25th, 2014, 12:44 pm

Re: Quoting bible verse in biblical greek

Post by pmander » August 5th, 2014, 4:24 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:Overall it looks good in my opinion. I realise it is a feature of the hand, but you might like to close up the top of the omicrons a bit more. It does look better right-justified and with more letters per line.

NB. You have lost ΟΥΚΕΣΤΙΝ from near the end of the second one. You should check that.

I think the Φ's at the beginning of the 5th and 7th lines (third text) are too far left.
Glad to hear it!

Fixed the omicrons (and "repaired" a lot of other letters), also good spot that I (or Codex Vaticanus) missed that part in 1 John, and also fixed the Φ's. Thanks AGAIN Stephen. You are truly living your signature, since I would compare my greek skills to a six year old, you seem to understand this language very well, since you succeed very well at explaining this to me. You help means a lot to me, so truly, thank you.

I will upload version with supralinear stroke in the second text, after the Φ (second line), and another version with a "N". intead of supralinear stroke Not sure which one to use. Which one looks the best?
Stephen Hughes wrote:The numbers you have written are positional decimal numerals, the so-called Hindu-Arabic numerals. At the time that the texts were written, those type of numbers were only just beginning to be developed in India. Division into chapters predates division into verses by a long shot, and for sure verse numbering post-date the adoption of Hindu-Arabic numerals by the West.

In the midst of these various historical anachronisms, are you interested in writing the numerals in the way that they would have been written at the time of authourship (but weren't)? The are called the Melesian (or Greek Alphabetic) numeral system.
:lol: Well. Isn't that like changing a historical anachronism to another?

I would like to consider it, but when I google greek alphabetic numeral system I feel kind of lost. I knew that arabic numerals were anachronistic, but they also are universally understood, so even a person with low theological literacy might understand that the greek texts are actually bible verses, once they see the chapters/verses. But still would be very interested to consider Melesian numeral system, will look into it when my head doesn't feel like mashed potatoes. When I close my eyes I actually see greek letters.

Also considering leaving chapters/verses out completely.
Attachments
lightwip2b.gif
Without supralinear stroke (middle text)
lightwip2b.gif (200.27 KiB) Viewed 772 times
lightwip2a.gif
With supralinear stroke (middle text)
lightwip2a.gif (197.07 KiB) Viewed 772 times
Peter Mänder

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3332
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Quoting bible verse in biblical greek

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 6th, 2014, 6:00 am

Thanks AGAIN Stephen. You are truly living your signature, since I would compare my greek skills to a six year old, you seem to understand this language very well, since you succeed very well at explaining this to me. You help means a lot to me, so truly, thank you.
There are some people who sound like they know something because they are the ones who talk a lot. Perhaps I am one of them.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

pmander
Posts: 23
Joined: July 25th, 2014, 12:44 pm

Re: Quoting bible verse in biblical greek

Post by pmander » August 10th, 2014, 10:09 am

Could you have a glance at a edited version of the last work in progress that I've made? I've removed the supralinear strokes and replaced them with letters, mostly because I do not understand them. Are the strokes corrections? In that case I thought I will just correct the text with the proper letters instead. altough I have kept some because they seem to spacen up the text.

Also added punctuation at the end of the first and third text.

Is there anything wrong with doing like I have done with the texts in the attached file (less strokes, more letters)?
Attachments
lightwip3.gif
lightwip3.gif (157.04 KiB) Viewed 725 times
Peter Mänder

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Quoting bible verse in biblical greek

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 10th, 2014, 11:21 am

Are the strokes corrections?
A scribal convention.
Is there anything wrong with doing like I have done with the texts in the attached file (less strokes, more letters)?
It is your hand. I don't think you need to slavishly copy another manuscript's hand. You are writinng for a readership that is used to things written out in full.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3332
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Quoting bible verse in biblical greek

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 11th, 2014, 1:10 am

Modern day usage of Milesian numerals.

I realise you are not planning to use them, but ...

FYI, the Milesian numerals for the verses you are quoting are; 8:12 - η'.ιβ', 2:10 - β'.ι', 2:25 - κβ'.ε'.

Also FYI: Those Milesian numerals (i.e. α',β',γ',... [this is them in their Greek modern written form]) are still used "liturgically" in the Greek and Coptic Orthodox Churches (with native Coptic letters used instead of some of the obsolete Greek letters in the later context), (as well as their using the (so-called) Arabic numerals (i.e. 0,1,2,3,...) or the (actual) Arabic numerals (i.e. ٠,١,٢,٣,...) along side them in other contexts in those Churches in general respectively).

In case you are wondering if they are really "Greek" numerals as Wiki calls them - I mean spoken out in Greek - they are pronounced in Greek (i.e. ἕν,δὐο,τρἰα,... or as ordinals [πρῶτον, δεύτερον, τρῖτον, ...] as required by grammatical context) in Greek language contexts and as Coptic (i.e. ouai, esnav, šomt, ... [in the 19th century reformed liturgical pronunciation], or as ordinals [šorp for "first" then the others constructed with a prefixed "mah-"] as the context requires), in the same way that we are used to in modern language that pronounce the decimal position numerals in their own words not foreign ones.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

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