Translating Athanasius

Greek texts such as the New Testament, The Greek Old Testament (Septuagint/LXX), Patristic Greek texts, Papyri, and other Greek writings of the New Testament era. Discussion must focus on the Greek text, not on modern language translations, theological controversies, or textual criticism.
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Translating Athanasius

Post by Barry Hofstetter » February 19th, 2018, 11:36 pm

James Ernest wrote:
February 17th, 2018, 7:35 am
Hi, I just happened to drop in here. Seems to me you weren’t picking up that ἐξ αὐτῆς refers to the Theotokos—a neuter form, but the feminine form is used ad sensum.
Νο. The word is feminine, so no need for an "ad sensum."

θεοτόκος, ου, ἡ, (τίκτω, τεκεῖν) Deipara, an epithet of the Virgin Mary. Orig. III, 813 C. Method. 369 C. 381 B. Petr. Alex. 517 B. Eus. II, 1104 A. IV, 945 B. Jul. Frag. 262 D. 276 E. Athan. II, 897 A. 1097 C. 1113 C. Cyrill. H. 685 A. Greg. Naz. II, 80 A. III, 177 C. Greg. Nyss. III, 633 A. Philon Carp. 108 B. Theod. Mops. 992 B. Socr. 809 A. Cyrill. A. X, 12 D. 13 B. Leont. I, 1720 D. Modest. 3280 A.

Sophocles, E. A. (1900). Greek Lexicon of the Roman and Byzantine Periods (From B. C. 146 to A. D. 1100) (Memorial Edition, p. 578). New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons.
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
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Barry Hofstetter
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Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: Translating Athanasius

Post by Barry Hofstetter » February 19th, 2018, 11:41 pm

Shirley Rollinson wrote:
February 19th, 2018, 8:32 pm
Phil Tolstead wrote:
February 19th, 2018, 11:03 am

Returning to the Greek sentence, would the following capture its sense?

σάρκα οὐκ ἂν ἔλαβεν ἐξ αὐτῆς ὁ Θεὸς Λόγος; ἀλλὰ ἐκεῖ βιάζεταί με ὁ Εὐαγγελιστὴς βοῶν μεγάλῃ τῇ φωνῇ· «Ὁ Λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο.»

The Word of God could not from her receive flesh??? Rather here, I am subdued by the evangelist, crying with a great voice “The word became flesh” .

or

The Word of God could not from her receive human nature??? Rather here, I am subdued by the evangelist, crying with a great voice “The word became human”.
I would translate it as "Did not God the Word receive flesh from her?" (expecting the answer 'yes'), so maybe "God the Word received flesh from her, didn't He?"
I think that's good. Also note:

ἀλλὰ ἐκεῖ βιάζεταί με ὁ Εὐαγγελιστὴς...

The accusative direct object με indicates that the writer is using βιάζεται as a middle form, "But the Evangelist there constrains me..."
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
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Phil Tolstead
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Joined: April 26th, 2017, 2:11 am

Re: Translating Athanasius

Post by Phil Tolstead » February 20th, 2018, 5:59 am

Thanks one and all. A very enjoyable exercise.

Ken, I did indeed turn the middle biazetai into a passive, in an attempt to convey the feeling from ἀλλὰ ἐκεῖ βιάζεταί με being 'fronted' in the sentence. I wonder how much force fronting actually adds? This is one of those 'is that really true?" moments. How forceful would the statement feel to a Koine Greek speaker? (of course the vocabulary is also forceful- biazetai itself along with the great and loud shouting...
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Translating Athanasius

Post by Barry Hofstetter » February 20th, 2018, 12:30 pm

Phil Tolstead wrote:
February 20th, 2018, 5:59 am
Thanks one and all. A very enjoyable exercise.

Ken, I did indeed turn the middle biazetai into a passive, in an attempt to convey the feeling from ἀλλὰ ἐκεῖ βιάζεταί με being 'fronted' in the sentence. I wonder how much force fronting actually adds? This is one of those 'is that really true?" moments. How forceful would the statement feel to a Koine Greek speaker? (of course the vocabulary is also forceful- biazetai itself along with the great and loud shouting...
I'm not sure. I think it's something that would be communicated by tone or emphasis, or even metavocals, in speaking. As for your translation of the passive, I don't think that adds anything except possibly to misrepresent the text in this particular instance.
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
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