How long does it take to get to the city?

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How long does it take to get to the city?

Postby Stephen Hughes » July 24th, 2013, 5:15 am

The answers to my other post about too / enough were very encouraging. Another point of grammar that I have no idea how to express is questions like, "How much does it cost to <verb> / for <noun>?" and "How long does it take to get to <place>?", and any other how questions.
Stephen Hughes
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Re: How long does it take to get to the city?

Postby Mark Lightman » July 25th, 2013, 1:09 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:How long does it take to get to the city?


πόσας ἡμέρας δεῖ ἡμᾶς ἐλαύνοντας εἰς τὴν πόλιν ἀφικέσθαι?
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Re: How long does it take to get to the city?

Postby George F Somsel » July 25th, 2013, 1:34 am

The genitive is generally used to express the duration of a journey. See Lk 2.44 where the word ὁδός in the acc is used to express the idea of a journey and the length is given in the genitive
ἦλθον ἡμέρας ὁδὸν


Similarly, the price of an object is given in the genitive. See Mt 26.9 where an indefinite amount is given for the price (much)
ἐδύνατο γὰρ τοῦτο πραθῆναι πολλοῦ
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Re: How long does it take to get to the city?

Postby Stephen Hughes » July 25th, 2013, 6:02 am

Mark Lightman wrote:πόσας ἡμέρας δεῖ ἡμᾶς ἐλαύνοντας εἰς τὴν πόλιν ἀφίκεσθαι?


Thanks for that. My question really showed my ignorance of the obvious. But, if they were coming in from the countryside within the city state wouldn't we say something like:
πόσας ἡμέρας δεῖ ἡμᾶς ἐλαύνοντας ἄστυ ἀφίκεσθαι?
Stephen Hughes
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Re: How long does it take to get to the city?

Postby Stephen Hughes » July 26th, 2013, 2:40 am

George F Somsel wrote:The genitive is generally used to express the duration of a journey.
Similarly, the price of an object is given in the genitive.


That is very interesting. The subtleties of the cases used in this way is something that I have not paid much attention to up until now.

The books that I sort of rely on for seeing how Greek expresses things, Greek Phrase book, Auden (prefaced 1899, reprinted 1935, acquired by a Perry 1941), and Woodhouse don't sort of cover things that should have been known early on in the piece. I hope that I can systematically go back over my Greek and fill in the "fuzzy" bits.
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How Long

Postby Paul-Nitz » August 27th, 2013, 12:49 pm

Stephen,
I'm enjoying both your questions and the answers. This is similar to the Koine Phrasebook thread on B-Greek:
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=1641&hilit=phrasebook

The link to the phrasebook (an open file) is...
https://docs.google.com/a/seelsorger.or ... QdlE#gid=0

Feel free to add in any conclusions you discover, such as "ποσας ημερας δει ημας..." and "endugh, too much."
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Re: How long does it take to get to the city?

Postby Stephen Hughes » August 27th, 2013, 5:25 pm

Paul-Nitz wrote:This is similar to the Koine Phrasebook thread on B-Greek

Ὀνάντων τοιοῦτων ἐγχειριδίων, κατὰ τὴν ἐμὴν ἐπιχείρησιν, ἡ κατάλληλος δοκιμασία ἑνὸς νῦν κατὰ τὸ αὐτοκρατορικὸν ἰδίωμα συγγραφέντος συνισταίη ἐκ δυὸ στοιχείων, δηλαδὴ ἐκ τῆς χρήσεως μὲν τῶν μετοχῶν, ἐκ δὲ τῶν ῥημάτων τὸ ἔχειν τε καὶ τὸ ποιεῖν. συζητούμενοι ἆρα ἐνθάδε τὰς μετοχὰς, οὔπω δὲ ἀνεταξάμην τὸ ἔχειν ἢ τὸ ποιεῖν, ὡς διαφέρονται ἓν τοῦ ἄλλου καὶ τὰ δυὸ τοῦ εἶναι. διὸ προσδοχῶ τὸν μέλλοντα περὶ τῶν τριῶν ῥημάτων διαλογισμὸν καὶ μάλλιστα τὸν περὶ τὸ ἔχειν.
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(Attributed to Albert Einstein)
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Re: How long does it take to get to the city?

Postby Louis L Sorenson » August 28th, 2013, 7:55 am

The phrase 'How long' as a question occurs both in the LXX and NT. There are some variations between ἕως τίνος and ἕως πότε (both phrases with the interrogative. The question is followed by the present or future indicative or subjunctive. The concept 'how long until' seems rarely expressed using ἕως μέχρι (3χ).
Pseudo-Zonaras Lexicogr.,
Lexicon Alphabetic letter epsilon, page 684, line 16·
σοφιστὴς Βυζάντιος, ὃς χρονικὴν
ἐπιτομὴν ἔγραψεν ἀπὸ Ἀδὰμ ἕως μέχρι τῶν
χρόνων Θεοδοσίου τοῦ μεγάλου ἐν βιβλίοις δέκα.




Here are a few citations:

Ex 10.3 εἰσῆλθεν δὲ Μωυσῆς καὶ Ααρων ἐναντίον Φαραω καὶ εἶπαν αὐτῷ Τάδε λέγει κύριος ὁ θεὸς τῶν Εβραίων Ἕως τίνος οὐ βούλει ἐντραπῆναί με; ἐξαπόστειλον τὸν λαόν μου, ἵνα λατρεύσωσίν μοι.

Ex 16.28 28 εἶπεν δὲ κύριος πρὸς Μωυσῆν Ἕως τίνος οὐ βούλεσθε εἰσακούειν τὰς ἐντολάς μου καὶ τὸν νόμον μου;
Nu 14.11 καὶ εἶπεν κύριος πρὸς Μωυσῆν Ἕως τίνος παροξύνει με ὁ λαὸς οὗτος καὶ ἕως τίνος οὐ πιστεύουσίν μοι ἐν πᾶσιν τοῖς σημείοις, οἷς ἐποίησα ἐν αὐτοῖς;

Joshua 18.3 καὶ εἶπεν Ἰησοῦς τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισραηλ Ἕως τίνος ἐκλυθήσεσθε κληρονομῆσαι τὴν γῆν, ἣν ἔδωκεν κύριος ὁ θεὸς ἡμῶν;
1 Kgdoms (Samuel) 1.14 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῇ τὸ παιδάριον Ηλι Ἕως πότε μεθυσθήσῃ; περιελοῦ τὸν οἶνόν σου καὶ πορεύου ἐκ προσώπου κυρίου.

2 Kgdoms (Samuel) 2.26 καὶ ἐκάλεσεν Αβεννηρ Ιωαβ καὶ εἶπεν Μὴ εἰς νῖκος καταφάγεται ἡ ῥομφαία; ἦ οὐκ οἶδας ὅτι πικρὰ ἔσται εἰς τὰ ἔσχατα; καὶ ἕως πότε οὐ μὴ εἴπῃς τῷ λαῷ ἀναστρέφειν ἀπὸ ὄπισθεν τῶν ἀδελφῶν ἡμῶν;

Ps 89.46 (LXX 88.47) 47 ἕως πότε, κύριε, ἀποστρέψεις εἰς τέλος, ἐκκαυθήσεται ὡς πῦρ ἡ ὀργή σου;

Hab 1.2 2 Ἕως τίνος, κύριε, κεκράξομαι καὶ οὐ μὴ εἰσακούσῃς;

Septuaginta: With morphology. 1996 (Hab 1:2). Stuttgart: Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft. (See also 1 reigns 16.1; Jer 31.22; Zech 1.12; Ps 13.2; Ps 35.17; Ps 79.5; Ps 80.4)

Rev 6.10 καὶ ἔκραξαν φωνῇ μεγάλῃ λέγοντες· ἕως πότε, ὁ δεσπότης ὁ ἅγιος καὶ ἀληθινός, οὐ κρίνεις καὶ ἐκδικεῖς τὸ αἷμα ἡμῶν ἐκ τῶν κατοικούντων ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς;

Aland, B., Aland, K., Black, M., Martini, C. M., Metzger, B. M., & Wikgren, A. (1993). The Greek New Testament (4th ed.) (644). Federal Republic of Germany: United Bible Societies.

Some other structures (taken from LSJ)
εἰς πότε.....II. OF TIME,
1. to denote a certain point or limit of time, up to, until, “ἐς ἠῶ” Od.11.375; ἐς ἠέλιον καταδύντα till sunset, 9.161 (but also, towards or near sunset, 3.138); “ἐκ νεότητος ἐς γῆρας” Il.14.86; “ἐκ παιδὸς ἐς γῆρας” Aeschin.1.180; ἐς ἐμέ up to my time, Hdt.1.92, al.: with Advbs., εἰς ὅτε (cf. ἔς τε) against the time when . . , Od.2.99; εἰς πότε; until when ? how long ? S.Aj.1185 (lyr., cf. “εἰσόκἐ; εἰς ὁπότε” Aeschin.3.99; ἐς τί; = εἰς πότε; Il.5.465; ἐς ὅ until, Hdt.1.93, etc.; “ἐς οὗ” Id.1.67, 3.31, etc.; “ἐς τόδε” Id.7.29, etc.

ἕως 6 with Advbs. of Time and Place, ἕ. ὅτε till the time when, c. ind., v.l. for ἔστε in X.Cyr.5.1.25; ἕ. οὗ, f.l. for ἐς οὗ, Hdt.2.143: freq. in later Gr., Gem.l.c., Ev.Matt.1.25, etc.; ἕ. ὅτου ib.5.25, etc.; ἕ. πότε; how long? ib.17.17, Ev.Jo.10.24; ἕ. τότε LXX Ne.2.16; ἕ. ὀψέ till late, f.l.for ἐς ὀψέ, Th.3.108; ἕ. ἄρτι 1 Ep.Jo.2.9; ἕ. ὧδε as far as this place, Ev.Luc.23.5.
4. καί (page 857)

μέχρι (page 1123) 2 of Time, τέο μέχρις; i.e. τίνος μέχρι χρόνου; how long? Il.24.128; μέχρις τεῦ; Callin.1.1: in Prose, μέχρι τούτου Hdt.1.4; μέχρι οὗ, μέχρι ὅσου, Pl.Mx.245a, Hdt.8.3, al.; μ. τοσούτου, ἕως ἂν . . Th.1.90; μ. τούτου, . . μέχρις ἂν ῥηθῶσιν Din.1.91, cf. Pl.Phd.81d: with the Art., τὸ μ. ἐμεῦ up to my time, Hdt.3.10, 5.115; μ. τῆς ἐκείνου ζόης till the end of his life, Id.3.160; μ. ἡμερέων ἑπτά Id.6.12; μέχρι Πυθίων Th.5.1; μέχρι ἡλίου δύντος IG12.188.4.
6. ὅσος (page 1261) ib.5000 (Gortyn): Relat. and indirect interrog. Adj.:—of Size, as great as, how great; of Quantity, as much as, how much; of Space, as far as, how far; of Time, as long as, how long; of Number, as many as, how many; of Sound, as loud as, how loud: correl. with τόσος (τόσσος), τοσόσδε, τοσοῦτος, in sense as,

παρατείνω (page 1327) Luc. Macr.3. . as aux. Verb, c. part., ποῖ παρατενεῖς δεδιὼς ταῦτα; how long will you go on fearing this? Philostr. VA7.22, cf. 5.26. [note: ποῖ has fallen out of Koine for the most part and been replaced by ποῦ. Or is this a shortened ποῖος?]

ποῖ (page 1427) ἃ δ' ὑπέσχεο π. καταθήσεις; S.OC227 (anap.). how long? ποῖ χρῆν ἀναμεῖναι; Ar.Lys.526.

πόσος (page 1453) 3. of Time, how long? π. τινὰ χρόνον; S.OT558, etc.; π. χρόνου;πότε; Ar.Ach.83. 4 of Value, how much? πόσον δίδως; Id.Pax 1262; πόσου; at what price? Id.Ach.812,898, Pl.Ap.20b, etc.; ἐπὶ πόσῳ; ib.41a, X.Cyr.3.1.43; ἐκ πόσου is f.l. for ὁπόσου in D.50.30.

τίς ] etc.:—ἐκ τίνος; from what cause? X.An.5.8.4:—ἐς τί; to what point? how long? Il.5.465; but also, to what end? S.Tr.403, cf.

χρόνος (page 2008) ποίου χρόνου; A.Ag.278; πόσου χ.; after how long? Ar.Ach.83. dat., χρόνῳ in process of time,
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Re: How long does it take to get to the city?

Postby Paul-Nitz » August 28th, 2013, 10:42 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:Ὀνάντων τοιοῦτων ἐγχειριδίων, κατὰ τὴν ἐμὴν ἐπιχείρησιν, ἡ κατάλληλος δοκιμασία ἑνὸς νῦν κατὰ τὸ αὐτοκρατορικὸν ἰδίωμα συγγραφέντος συνισταίη ἐκ δυὸ στοιχείων, δηλαδὴ ἐκ τῆς χρήσεως μὲν τῶν μετοχῶν, ἐκ δὲ τῶν ῥημάτων τὸ ἔχειν τε καὶ τὸ ποιεῖν. συζητούμενοι ἆρα ἐνθάδε τὰς μετοχὰς, οὔπω δὲ ἀνεταξάμην τὸ ἔχειν ἢ τὸ ποιεῖν, ὡς διαφέρονται ἓν τοῦ ἄλλου καὶ τὰ δυὸ τοῦ εἶναι. διὸ προσδοχῶ τὸν μέλλοντα περὶ τῶν τριῶν ῥημάτων διαλογισμὸν καὶ μάλλιστα τὸν περὶ τὸ ἔχειν.

σύγγνωμην ἔχε μοι. τὸ σύγγραμμα σου τρίς ανέγνων. ἀναγνούς λυπούμαι ὅτι οὐ πολλά τοῦ συγγράματος σύνηκα. γράψον παλιν, ἀλλά ὡς πρός παιδίον.
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Re: How long does it take to get to the city?

Postby Stephen Hughes » August 28th, 2013, 1:46 pm

Paul-Nitz wrote:γράψον παλιν, ἀλλά ὡς πρός παιδίον.
A most unexpected request I must say!

ἔλθατε, ἀγαπημένα μου Χερουβίν. βλέψατε. ὁ ἐν Ἀφρικῇ φίλος ἡμῶν Παῦλος καὶ οἱ φίλοι αὐτοῦ ἔγραψαν τοῦτο τὸ μικρὸν βιβλίδιον. ἐν μέσῳ τοῦ βιβλίου ἐτάξαντο πολλὰς φράσεις.

ὠφέλιμόν ἐστιν τὸ βιβλίον αὐτῶν. ἐπαινῶμεν καὶ εὐχαριστῶμεν αὐτοῖς.

μάλιστα, ἐκφράσεις ἀναγκαίαι ἀλλὰ πολὺ ἁπλαί εἰσιν. διατὶ δεῖ ἡμᾶς μαθεῖν καὶ τὰ δυσκυλότατα, ἐξ ὧν φαίνεται ὅτι ἡ Ἑλληνικὴ ἡμῶν γλῶσσα καλή ἐστιν. ἐλπίζω γὰρ ὅτι ἐχθὲς μαθήσετε δυὸ ῥήματα, τὸ ἔχειν καὶ τὸ ποιεῖν.

λοιπὸν παιδάρια, ἀρκετά, τέλος. παιδαγωγοί, ὡς τάχα.
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