Revelation 17:18 Greek analysis

Grammar questions which are not related to any specific text.
Jonathan Robie
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Re: Revelation 17:18 Greek analysis

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Bigdawg247 wrote: October 28th, 2024, 3:31 pm I was under the impression that a present participle indicates that it’s happening in the current time of writing and I seen revelation 17:18 in the present and so I assumed it was speaking about the great city which was ruling at the time John was writing this
As I interpret the text, it is speaking about the great city that was ruling at the time, but I can't prove it from the tenses.

Even in English, consider this: "So yesterday, a man walks into the yard and he's wearing an orange hat and he starts talking to me ..." That's got a lot of present tense, but it happened yesterday, and it's perfectly normal spoken English.

Or consider Moby Dick, who recalls past events like this: "Suddenly, a mighty mass of white curls up from the blue, and the great sperm whale lies wallowing, leaving white masses of marine froth in his wake."

"I am going to the store to buy hot dogs tonight." Present tense. It does not prove that I am currently in the process of going to the store. In fact, I'm at my keyboard, typing this up.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Cameron Brisker
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Koine Greek Revelation 17:18

Post by Cameron Brisker »

In Revelation 17:18, the koine Greek text uses the present tense verb ἔστιν and the present participle ἔχουσα. Does the use of these present forms in Koine Greek indicate that the city is actively reigning in John’s present timeframe?” I’m looking for a direct answer based solely on the Greek grammar and structure, without interpretive layering. Any clarity you could provide on this would be greatly appreciated.”

καὶ ἡ γυνὴ ἣν εἶδες ἔστιν ἡ πόλις ἡ μεγάλη ἡ ἔχουσα βασιλείαν ἐπὶ τῶν βασιλέων τῆς γῆς
Jason Hare
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Re: Koine Greek Revelation 17:18

Post by Jason Hare »

Cameron Brisker wrote: October 29th, 2024, 1:40 pm In Revelation 17:18, the koine Greek text uses the present tense verb ἔστιν and the present participle ἔχουσα. Does the use of these present forms in Koine Greek indicate that the city is actively reigning in John’s present timeframe?” I’m looking for a direct answer based solely on the Greek grammar and structure, without interpretive layering. Any clarity you could provide on this would be greatly appreciated.”

καὶ ἡ γυνὴ ἣν εἶδες ἔστιν ἡ πόλις ἡ μεγάλη ἡ ἔχουσα βασιλείαν ἐπὶ τῶν βασιλέων τῆς γῆς
I think you’ve been answered as well as can be expected. Why are you asking the same question again?
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Cameron Brisker
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Re: Koine Greek Revelation 17:18

Post by Cameron Brisker »

Well I’m looking for a koine Greek scholar yesterday I wasn’t getting the answers that I was looking for cause I wasn’t asking the right people and there is a difference between classical Greek and koine Greek from what I’ve researched so far koine Greek deal with the participles and tenses and revelation was written in koine Greek
Last edited by Cameron Brisker on October 29th, 2024, 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jonathan Robie
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Re: Koine Greek Revelation 17:18

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Cameron Brisker wrote: October 29th, 2024, 3:14 pm Well I’m looking for a koine Greek scholar yesterday I wasn’t getting the answers that I was looking for cause I wasn’t asking the right people and there is a difference between classical Greek and koine Greek from what I’ve researched so far koine Greek deal with the participles and tenses and revelation was written in koine Greek
This is a Koine Greek forum. I don't think you will find an answer here that is very different from what we have already given you.

What reason do you have to believe our answers were wrong?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Cameron Brisker
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Re: Revelation 17:18 Greek analysis

Post by Cameron Brisker »

Honestly I’m being told two different things and it’s confusing and frustrating cause I’m being told and shown that in koine Greek it deals with present participles and if it’s a present participle then that indicates that it’s a ongoing action and lets us know it’s dealing with the current time at hand never mind I do appreciate your response I will leave it alone
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Re: Revelation 17:18 Greek analysis

Post by Jason Hare »

Cameron Brisker wrote: October 29th, 2024, 6:45 pm Honestly I’m being told two different things and it’s confusing and frustrating cause I’m being told and shown that in koine Greek it deals with present participles and if it’s a present participle then that indicates that it’s a ongoing action and lets us know it’s dealing with the current time at hand never mind I do appreciate your response I will leave it alone
You need to just start learning Greek and stop getting frustrated when you’ve asked questions about something that you clearly aren’t ready to hear. Take a breath and open a book. Do you need recommendations on where to start your study of Greek? You will find that there is nothing in any language spoken now or in the history of mankind that specifically means that something is ongoing and always in the current time. As long as time moves forward, this cannot be the case with anything. It will always be the case that situations change with time.
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Re: Revelation 17:18 Greek analysis

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Cameron Brisker wrote: October 29th, 2024, 6:45 pm Honestly I’m being told two different things and it’s confusing and frustrating cause I’m being told and shown that in koine Greek it deals with present participles and if it’s a present participle then that indicates that it’s a ongoing action and lets us know it’s dealing with the current time at hand never mind I do appreciate your response I will leave it alone
I have no idea who is telling you that. But this part is nonsense, for either classical Greek or koine Greek:
if it’s a present participle then that indicates that it’s a ongoing action and lets us know it’s dealing with the current time at hand
For instance, consider these verses, where the main verb refers to the past:
  • Text: Matthew 9:9
    Main Verb (Past): ἦλθεν (he came)
    Present Participle: πορευομένου (going)
    Translation: "As he was going, he came to a man named Matthew."
  • Text: Mark 5:35
    Main Verb (Past): λέγει (he said)
    Present Participle: ἐρχομένου (coming)
    Translation: "While he was coming, he said to him."
  • Text: Luke 24:15
    Main Verb (Past): συνέβη (it happened)
    Present Participle: ὁμιλοῦντος (speaking)
    Translation: "While they were speaking, it happened that Jesus himself drew near."
  • Text: John 11:20
    Main Verb (Past): ἦλθεν (she came)
    Present Participle: ἀκούσασα (hearing)
    Translation: "As she was hearing this, she came to meet him."
  • Text: Acts 10:44
    Main Verb (Past): ἐλάλει (he was speaking)
    Present Participle: λέγοντος (speaking)
    Translation: "While he was speaking, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard."
Here it is with main verbs referring to the future:
  • Text: Matthew 10:19
    Main Verb (Future): δοθήσεται (it will be given)
    Present Participle: λαλοῦντες (speaking)
    Translation: "For it will be given to you in that hour while you are speaking what you should say."
  • Text: Luke 17:24
    Main Verb (Future): ἔσται (it will be)
    Present Participle: ἀστράπτων (flashing)
    Translation: "For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky, so will it be with the Son of Man in his day."
  • Text: John 6:51
    Main Verb (Future): ζήσει (he will live)
    Present Participle: τρώγων (eating)
    Translation: "He who will be eating of this bread will live forever."
  • Text: Matthew 24:50
    Main Verb (Future): ἥξει (he will come)
    Present Participle: προσδοκῶν (expecting)
    Translation: "The master of that servant will come on a day when he is not expecting him."
  • Text: John 15:6
    Main Verb (Future): βληθήσεται (he will be thrown)
    Present Participle: μένοντος (abiding)
    Translation: "If anyone does not abide in me, he will be thrown away like a branch and withers."
Now when it comes down to it, this forum is for people who are learning Greek. We can help you with that if you are interested. But we don't really answer questions for people who are not learning Greek.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
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Re: Revelation 17:18 Greek analysis

Post by Devenios Doulenios »

If you are interested in learning Greek, there is a lot of support and help for that here. If you do begin that journey, much that is confusing will become clear as you learn more and acquire the language.
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"Ὁδοὶ δύο εἰσί, μία τῆς ζωῆς καὶ μία τοῦ θανάτου."--Διδαχή Α, α'
Shirley Rollinson
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Re: Revelation 17:18 Greek analysis

Post by Shirley Rollinson »

Cameron B wrote: October 28th, 2024, 11:12 am Revelation 17:18 in the Greek καὶ ἡ γυνὴ ἣν εἶδες ἔστιν ἡ πόλις ἡ μεγάλη ἡ ἔχουσα βασιλείαν ἐπὶ τῶν βασιλέων τῆς γῆς

Can a Greek scholar please break down to me if this phrase ἔχουσα βασιλείαν is in the past present or future tense cause John is trying to identify the woman who is that great city and I was looking it up and I was showed and found out that it was in the present tense participle which is indicating that it’s a ongoing action in the time that John is writing this I had somebody who was a Greek speaker that this was past present and future
Welcome to B-Greek. It looks as if you are getting into some exegetical work on the Biblical texts. Rather than relying on what other people tell you, it might be good to start learning some Greek for yourself - I find that really helps to make the text 'speak' to me. If you want to make a start, I have a Greek textbook online which everyone can use for free.
It's at http://www.drshirley.org/greek/textbook02/index.html
All best wishes with your studies
Shirley Rollinson
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