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Verb help

Posted: April 28th, 2012, 8:40 pm
by WAnderson
I can't seem to identify a certain usage of estin / eisin, can't find it in Wallace, etc. A couple quick examples I've found would be Matt. 13:37 "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man"; and Rev. 1:20 "the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches." Is there a special category for this kind of usage?

Re: Verb help

Posted: April 28th, 2012, 9:43 pm
by Scott Lawson
WAnderson wrote:I can't seem to identify a certain usage of estin / eisin, can't find it in Wallace, etc. A couple quick examples I've found would be Matt. 13:37 "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man"; and Rev. 1:20 "the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches." Is there a special category for this kind of usage?
It is just the normal use of the be verb. Can you be more specific about what puzzles you?

Re: Verb help

Posted: April 28th, 2012, 9:59 pm
by Scott Lawson
Hmm...You'll probably find it in Wallace under Convertible Propositions.

Re: Verb help

Posted: April 28th, 2012, 10:09 pm
by WAnderson
Sorry for the confustion, I'm having difficulty framing the question properly. Although the examples I gave are in the present indicative, they aren't time-specific. I've noticed this in several places in the NT. Here's another example that hopefully might better illustrate, Rev. 17:18 "The woman . . . is the great city." The verb doesn't seem to denote that "the woman is (present tense, as I speak) the great city," but rather, "The woman is (symbolically equates to) the great city."

Re: Verb help

Posted: April 28th, 2012, 10:23 pm
by WAnderson
OK, whaddya know, I did a search on the Matthew 13:37 reference and got a hit:

http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/Ted_Hil ... tTense.htm

On page 72, it looks like he calls what I'm talking about the "Interpretive Present." Is anyone familiar with this distinction? Haven't seen it called that elsewhere.

Re: Verb help

Posted: April 28th, 2012, 10:28 pm
by Scott Lawson
Your first example at Revelation 1:20 is a subset proposition. Wallace speaks to this use of both subset and convertible propositions under Nominatives. It is the equative use of the be verb.

Re: Verb help

Posted: April 28th, 2012, 10:37 pm
by WAnderson
Hmm...You'll probably find it in Wallace under Convertible Propositions.
Thank you. Yes, it appears Wallace addresses similar constructions starting on p. 41, which he calls "convertible propositions." But it does seem that the label "Interpretive Present" better categorizes what I was specifically wondering about.

Re: Verb help

Posted: April 28th, 2012, 10:40 pm
by David Lim
WAnderson wrote:Sorry for the confustion, I'm having difficulty framing the question properly. Although the examples I gave are in the present indicative, they aren't time-specific. I've noticed this in several places in the NT. Here's another example that hopefully might better illustrate, Rev. 17:18 "The woman . . . is the great city." The verb doesn't seem to denote that "the woman is (present tense, as I speak) the great city," but rather, "The woman is (symbolically equates to) the great city."
I don't see why the verb cannot be understood to refer to present time. In Matt 13:37, Jesus states a present fact, which is that "the son of man is the one who sows good seed". It is not a fact of the past, therefore "ην" is not used. In Revelation, which is supposed to be a revelation of many things across history, including the future, there will likewise be many statements in the present tense because it is a present fact to the one who sees it happening. Of course, it is clear that it is metaphoric and not literal, but that is in my opinion independent of the tense. Similarly in John 1:4,9 you see that "ην" is used for such symbolic statements, because those were facts of the past at the time of writing, though of course it does not mean that the statements are no longer true in the present.

Re: Verb help

Posted: April 28th, 2012, 10:54 pm
by WAnderson
I don't see why the verb cannot be understood to refer to present time. In Matt 13:37, Jesus states a present fact, which is that "the son of man is the one who sows good seed". It is not a fact of the past, therefore "ην" is not used. In Revelation, which is supposed to be a revelation of many things across history, including the future, there will likewise be many statements in the present tense because it is a present fact to the one who sees it happening. Of course, it is clear that it is metaphoric and not literal, but that is in my opinion independent of the tense. Similarly in John 1:4,9 you see that "ην" is used for such symbolic statements, because those were facts of the past at the time of writing, though of course it does not mean that the statements are no longer true in the present.
Yes, it seems the operative idea here is, as you said, "symbolic" (or "metaphorical"). That's what the vss I cited have in common.
Your first example at Revelation 1:20 is a subset proposition. Wallace speaks to this use of both subset and convertible propositions under Nominatives. It is the equative use of the be verb.
Thank you, I will look at that.

Thanks all for the input, I don't want to bog things down here with newbie questions, I was simply curious about that kind of use of the "to be" verb.

Re: Verb help

Posted: April 29th, 2012, 7:11 am
by Jonathan Robie
Sounds like you understood how the verb is being used, you just had a hard time relating that to the set of categories in the grammar. This is often a problem with sets of categories like this.

The categories are there to help you understand the usage. In this case, you understand the usage.