Revelation 17:18 Greek analysis

Grammar questions which are not related to any specific text.
Cameron B
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Revelation 17:18 Greek analysis

Post by Cameron B »

Revelation 17:18 in the Greek καὶ ἡ γυνὴ ἣν εἶδες ἔστιν ἡ πόλις ἡ μεγάλη ἡ ἔχουσα βασιλείαν ἐπὶ τῶν βασιλέων τῆς γῆς

Can a Greek scholar please break down to me if this phrase ἔχουσα βασιλείαν is in the past present or future tense cause John is trying to identify the woman who is that great city and I was looking it up and I was showed and found out that it was in the present tense participle which is indicating that it’s a ongoing action in the time that John is writing this I had somebody who was a Greek speaker that this was past present and future
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Jason Hare
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Re: Revelation 17:18 Greek analysis

Post by Jason Hare »

This post of your is tentatively approved. You are not in conformity to our forum policy on User Names and Profiles, which indicates that you must use your real name (not “BigDawg247”) in order to participate here. We can change your username to something that reflects your name (such as “jhare,” “jahare,” or “Jason Hare” to represent my name), or you can put your name in the signature line of your profile (as I have done below). You must identify yourself to participate on B-Greek. Please let me know here, and I will make the necessary changes to your username.

That said, ἔχουσα is a participle, not the present tense. Participles are like secondary verbs that are dependent on a main verb. So, you can say, “I saw the woman holding a flag above her head.” The word “saw” is in the past tense, and the word “holding” is a participle of concomitant circumstances, meaning that it was happening at the same time as the seeing. In this verse, ἔχουσα is an adjectival participle modifying the noun πόλις “city.” It is a specific noun phrase: ἡ πόλις ἡ μεγάλη ἡ ἔχουσα βασιλείαν ἐπὶ τῶν βασιλέων τῆς γῆς “the city, the great [one], the [one] holding kingship over the kings of the earth.” More literally, “the great city which holds authority over earth’s kings.” The participle serves to identify which city is in question. I would say that from the perspective of the speaker it is viewed as the city that held sway over men during his time, but this is not directly stated by some sort of tense of the participles (participles do not code for tense but for aspect).
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Cameron B
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Re: Revelation 17:18 Greek analysis

Post by Cameron B »

Yes I’m sorry about that I apologize I will change my name I definitely thank you for the response so how will I be able to tell that the writer is speaking about the city during his time In the Greek ? What I meant by the present tense participle in the X in the Greek for echousa ἔχουσα βασιλείαν and I also seen where if it was referring to the future it would need this ἕξω
Last edited by Cameron B on October 28th, 2024, 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Revelation 17:18 Greek analysis

Post by Cameron B »

Sorry I meant thank you for the response and I will also change my name
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Revelation 17:18 Greek analysis

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Bigdawg247 wrote: October 28th, 2024, 2:42 pm Yes I’m sorry about that I apologize I will change my man def as n f thank you for the response so how will I be able to tell that the writer is speaking about the city during his time ?
Context really matters here. You should read Revelation 17 as a whole.
  • εἶδες (you saw) refers to a past event (when he saw the vision of the woman in the first part of the chapter).
  • ἔστιν (is) in the phrase ἡ γυνὴ ... ἔστιν ἡ πόλις ἡ μεγάλη is present tense, and says "the woman is the great city".
  • The participle ἔχουσα ("having") is in the present tense, and in Greek, a present participle usually indicates an action that is contemporaneous with the action of the main verb, which in this case is ἔστιν ("is"). The city, identified as "the woman," is presently existing (ἔστιν) and, at the same time, currently possessing authority (ἔχουσα) over the kings of the earth.
Is that the same time that John received the vision? Well, maybe, but the tenses don't tell you that. I tend to think it is based on how I understand and interpret this text, but flip ahead one chapter to Revelation 18, and you see this:
  • Ἔπεσεν, ἔπεσεν Βαβυλὼν ἡ μεγάλη" - fallen, fallen is Babylon the Great! Aorist indicative, a past tense. But it is past tense with respect to the vision, but I think this vision depicts a time in the future with respect to John.
  • καὶ ἐγένετο κατοικητήριον δαιμονίων καὶ φυλακὴ παντὸς πνεύματος ἀκαθάρτου καὶ φυλακὴ παντὸς ὀρνέου ἀκαθάρτου καὶ φυλακὴ παντὸς θηρίου ἀκαθάρτου καὶ μεμισημένου - and she has become a dwelling place for ... Aorist indicative again. Past tense with respect to the vision.
So it's not just the tenses, you also have to think about what time the vision is depicting to interpret what the tenses tell us. And even if you understand the tenses themselves perfectly, "a text without a context is only a pretext."
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: Revelation 17:18 Greek analysis

Post by Jason Hare »

Bigdawg247 wrote: October 28th, 2024, 2:42 pm Yes I’m sorry about that I apologize I will change my name I definitely thank you for the response so how will I be able to tell that the writer is speaking about the city during his time In the Greek ? What I meant by the present tense participle in the X in the Greek for echousa ἔχουσα βασιλείαν and I also seen where if it was referring to the future it would need this ἕξω
Again, participles do not exhibit tense. They do not tell you whether the author is thinking about his present or the future.
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Re: Revelation 17:18 Greek analysis

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Jason Hare wrote: October 28th, 2024, 3:15 pm
Bigdawg247 wrote: October 28th, 2024, 2:42 pm Yes I’m sorry about that I apologize I will change my name I definitely thank you for the response so how will I be able to tell that the writer is speaking about the city during his time In the Greek ? What I meant by the present tense participle in the X in the Greek for echousa ἔχουσα βασιλείαν and I also seen where if it was referring to the future it would need this ἕξω
Again, participles do not exhibit tense. They do not tell you whether the author is thinking about his present or the future.
So it's better to call them "present participles", not "present tense participles". I think that's what Jason is getting at.

Also, I think this post is helpful for seeing how the time of a participle relates to the time of the main verb:

https://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vi ... 634#p62634
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Jason Hare
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Re: Revelation 17:18 Greek analysis

Post by Jason Hare »

Jonathan Robie wrote: October 28th, 2024, 3:14 pm
  • εἶδες (you saw) refers to a past event (when he saw the vision of the woman in the first part of the chapter).
  • ἔστιν (is) in the phrase ἡ γυνὴ ... ἔστιν ἡ πόλις ἡ μεγάλη is present tense, and says "the woman is the great city".
  • The participle ἔχουσα ("having") is in the present tense, and in Greek, a present participle usually indicates an action that is contemporaneous with the action of the main verb, which in this case is ἔστιν ("is"). The city, identified as "the woman," is presently existing (ἔστιν) and, at the same time, currently possessing authority (ἔχουσα) over the kings of the earth.
If any tense is to be pulled from the expression, it is from ἔστιν rather than from ἔχουσα. Calling a participle “present” has to do with continuous aspect, not with tense.
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Cameron B
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Re: Revelation 17:18 Greek analysis

Post by Cameron B »

Awesome I see I will receive the correction and I understand what you both are saying I’ve read both revelation 17 and 18 and I’ve gotten familiar with it I’ve had talks with people and also I’ve had heard different interpretations of revelation 17:18 that’s in the future or in the past and so it sparked my mind to study it but i used ChatGPT and other Greek scholars such as Daniel b Wallace and at Robertson I was under the impression that a present participle indicates that it’s happening in the current time of writing and I seen revelation 17:18 in the present and so I assumed it was speaking about the great city which was ruling at the time John was writing this
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Re: Revelation 17:18 Greek analysis

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Jason Hare wrote: October 28th, 2024, 3:26 pm
Jonathan Robie wrote: October 28th, 2024, 3:14 pm
  • εἶδες (you saw) refers to a past event (when he saw the vision of the woman in the first part of the chapter).
  • ἔστιν (is) in the phrase ἡ γυνὴ ... ἔστιν ἡ πόλις ἡ μεγάλη is present tense, and says "the woman is the great city".
  • The participle ἔχουσα ("having") is in the present tense, and in Greek, a present participle usually indicates an action that is contemporaneous with the action of the main verb, which in this case is ἔστιν ("is"). The city, identified as "the woman," is presently existing (ἔστιν) and, at the same time, currently possessing authority (ἔχουσα) over the kings of the earth.
If any tense is to be pulled from the expression, it is from ἔστιν rather than from ἔχουσα. Calling a participle “present” has to do with continuous aspect, not with tense.
Most morphologies call this tense:

Tense: Present
Voice: Active
Mood: Participle
Gender: Feminine
Number: Singular
Case: Nominative

As long as that is true, people will use the term. I agree that it's important to emphasize that the time of a participle or infinitive is always with respect to a main verb. And I agree that it's better, when discussing syntax, to say "present participle".
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
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