Reflexive pronoun and Possessive adjective

Grammar questions which are not related to any specific text.
Maria Cezar
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Reflexive pronoun and Possessive adjective

Post by Maria Cezar » January 23rd, 2017, 9:31 am

1 Corinthians 7:2 uses two different Greek words for " his own" and "her own". The former being a reflexive pronoun and the latter a possessive adjective. Can you please comment when and why a writer would use those? Are they two different words with different meanings in Greek ? Does it mean that a husband has a different kind of possession of a wife and vice versa? Does this mean "own" as in exclusive , whichever word is used? Are they interchangeable in Greek?

I would like to quote the Greek verse but I still don't know how to write/attach it here. I'll try attached a file with the verse and parsing.

Help would be appreciated.
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1 Cor. 7v2-1.pdf
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Reflexive pronoun and Possessive adjective

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 23rd, 2017, 12:41 pm

Welcome to B-Greek!

First, a heads-up - to keep posting, you have to change your name to follow our user name policy:

https://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vi ... ?f=38&t=90

Here is the verse in question:
1 Cor 7:2 wrote:διὰ δὲ τὰς πορνείας ἕκαστος τὴν ἑαυτοῦ γυναῖκα ἐχέτω, καὶ ἑκάστη τὸν ἴδιον ἄνδρα ἐχέτω.
I can't find τὴν ἰδίαν γυναῖκα in the Greek New Testament, I can only find τὴν ἑαυτοῦ γυναῖκα, which occurs here and twice in Ephesians 5. I can't find τὸν ἑαυτῆς ἄνδρα in the Greek New Testament, I can only find τὸν ἴδιον ἄνδρα, which occurs only here.

I'm not sure what to make of it. τὸν ἑαυτῆς ἄνδρα does occur in other Greek literature, and so does τὴν ἰδίαν γυναῖκα. I don't see a lot of difference in meaning, but I could be wrong.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Reflexive pronoun and Possessive adjective

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » January 23rd, 2017, 3:57 pm

1Cor. 7:1 Περὶ δὲ ὧν ἐγράψατε, καλὸν ἀνθρώπῳ γυναικὸς μὴ ἅπτεσθαι· 2 διὰ δὲ τὰς πορνείας ἕκαστος τὴν ἑαυτοῦ γυναῖκα ἐχέτω καὶ ἑκάστη τὸν ἴδιον ἄνδρα ἐχέτω.
τὴν ὲαυτοῦ γυναῖκα … τὸν ἴδιον ἄνδρα. The Apostle seems always to use ἑαντοῦ, ἑαντῶν, or αὐτοῦ (Ephesians 5:28, Ephesians 5:31, Ephesians 5:33) of a man’s relation to his wife, but ἴδιος (14:35; Ephesians 5:22; Titus 2:5) of a woman’s to her husband (1 Thessalonians 4:4 is doubtful). Does this show that he regarded the husband as the owner and the wife as being owned? Romans 14:4 somewhat encourages this. But the difference between ἑαντοῦ and ἴδιος was becoming blurred: see J. H. Moulton, Gr. 1. pp. 87 f.; Deissmann, Bible Studies, pp. 122 f. A few texts omit καὶ ἑκάστη κ.τ.λ.

1Cor. Robertson-Plummer ICC, 1911, p133.
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

Maria Cezar
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Re: Reflexive pronoun and Possessive adjective

Post by Maria Cezar » January 24th, 2017, 7:03 am

Thank Sirs, for your reply . And I just sent an email requesting for change name :) , sorry about that oversight.
I am still hoping somebody can help enlighten the Apostle's use of 2 different Greek phrases here.
I have been studying this verse because this has been used by those who believe that God allows Polygamy that the the 2 Greek phrases are not interchangeable in the New testament signifying a difference between proprietorship of the husband from the wife. Thus they say that this verse does not restrict the number of wives a man can have but limits the wife to only one husband .
On the other hand , monogamists translates both phrases as one and the same , putting restriction to both husbands and wives to only one because of the word "own".
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Reflexive pronoun and Possessive adjective

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 24th, 2017, 1:39 pm

Maria Cezar wrote:Thank Sirs, for your reply . And I just sent an email requesting for change name :) , sorry about that oversight.
Thanks! I changed your user name, your password remains unchanged.
Maria Cezar wrote:I am still hoping somebody can help enlighten the Apostle's use of 2 different Greek phrases here.
I have been studying this verse because this has been used by those who believe that God allows Polygamy that the the 2 Greek phrases are not interchangeable in the New testament signifying a difference between proprietorship of the husband from the wife. Thus they say that this verse does not restrict the number of wives a man can have but limits the wife to only one husband .
On the other hand , monogamists translates both phrases as one and the same , putting restriction to both husbands and wives to only one because of the word "own".
We like to avoid theological debates here, but the background is helpful. Let's look at just the language question: both words are singular. ἕκαστος τὴν ἑαυτοῦ γυναῖκα ἐχέτω means "let each man have his own wife", not "let each man have one or more wives". Neither phrase discusses the question whether more than one would be allowed, neither phrase entertains the possibility.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Maria Cezar
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Re: Reflexive pronoun and Possessive adjective

Post by Maria Cezar » January 24th, 2017, 7:40 pm

Thank you very much Jonathan :)
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Wes Wood
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Re: Reflexive pronoun and Possessive adjective

Post by Wes Wood » January 24th, 2017, 8:28 pm

If I were making a case for Biblical polygamy, I would most likely start here:
καὶ εἶπεν Ναθαν πρὸς Δαυιδ Σὺ εἶ ὁ ἀνὴρ ὁ ποιήσας τοῦτο· τάδε λέγει κύριος ὁ θεὸς Ισραηλ ᾿Εγώ εἰμι ἔχρισά σε εἰς βασιλέα ἐπὶ Ισραηλ, καὶ ἐγώ εἰμι ἐρρυσάμην σε ἐκ χειρὸς Σαουλ καὶ ἔδωκά σοι τὸν οἶκον τοῦ κυρίου σου καὶ τὰς γυναῖκας τοῦ κυρίου σου ἐν τῷ κόλπῳ σου καὶ ἔδωκά σοι τὸν οἶκον Ισραηλ καὶ Ιουδα· καὶ εἰ μικρόν ἐστιν, προσθήσω σοι κατὰ ταῦτα. (II Sam. 12:7-8)
But...I'm not.
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Maria Cezar
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Re: Reflexive pronoun and Possessive adjective

Post by Maria Cezar » January 27th, 2017, 8:40 am

Yes Wes Wood, a good point indeed . 1 Kings 15:5 supports 2 Sam 12:7-8, but I am not making a case for polygamy( polygyny) either .

It seems that the number of wives a man can have was not restricted in OT and I have been asking if it has been changed in NT . Thus the question of the Greek translation/grammar for 1 Corinthians 7:2.

Did God allow polygyny in OT but changed it in NT here in 1 Corinthians 7:2 ? That was my question , but Jonathan , I like the simple approach on the language .I have been thinking deeply and confused but your comment offers quite a bit of enlightenment . If I understood your comment right ( give me some slack coz English is not my first language ) , the verse is not about numbers (?)
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Reflexive pronoun and Possessive adjective

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 27th, 2017, 8:44 am

Maria Cezar wrote: If I understood your comment right ( give me some slack coz English is not my first language ) , the verse is not about numbers (?)
Both forms are singular. Neither one refers to a man's "wives".
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Wes Wood
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Re: Reflexive pronoun and Possessive adjective

Post by Wes Wood » January 27th, 2017, 12:01 pm

Maria, first let me say that I didn't have a malicious intent with my first post. I'm not saying you thought I did, but my post was ambiguous. Clarification never hurts on a forum.
Did God allow polygyny in OT but changed it in NT here in 1 Corinthians 7:2?
While it is certainly helpful to understand this passage as well as possible in the pursuit of your answers, I think your question transcends the grammar of I Cor. 7:2.
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

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