Pronoun/antecedent question in Rev 13.5

Grammar questions which are not related to any specific text.
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WAnderson
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Pronoun/antecedent question in Rev 13.5

Post by WAnderson » January 30th, 2017, 2:12 am

Continuing with my Rev reading when time allows. While translating, a question occurred to me regarding Rev 13:5

καὶ ἐδόθη ἀὐτῷ στόμα λαλοῦν μεγάλα καὶ βλασφημίας͵ καὶ ἐδόθη ἀὐτῷ ἐξουσία ποιῆσαι μῆνας τεσσεράκοντα δύο

The antecedent of the first instance of ἀὐτῷ is θηρίῳ (beast) back in vs 4.

But my question is this: In a strictly grammatical sense (ie, interpretations aside), can the antecedent of the second instance of ἀὐτῷ be στόμα (mouth)? (If it helps, let's suppose that στόμα is here being personified and so can be given "authority to act.")
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S Walch
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Re: Pronoun/antecedent question in Rev 13.5

Post by S Walch » January 30th, 2017, 9:25 am

In a grammatical sense, no. For a pronoun such as this, if the antecedent was to change from the previous one, then the subject would have be changed as well.

So for this to indicate that the mouth was given ἐξουσία, we'd have to have τῷ στόματι in place of the pronoun ἀὐτῷ.

In normal Greek (and not the non-standard Greek of Revelation), the pronoun would usually not be repeated - the repeated pronoun indicates a Hebraic influence on the Author.
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Pronoun/antecedent question in Rev 13.5

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 30th, 2017, 9:48 am

WAnderson wrote:But my question is this: In a strictly grammatical sense (ie, interpretations aside), can the antecedent of the second instance of ἀὐτῷ be στόμα (mouth)? (If it helps, let's suppose that στόμα is here being personified and so can be given "authority to act.")
θηρίον and στόμα are both neuter, so it's grammatically possible, but I think it's unlikely. There are four instances of καὶ ἐδόθη αὐτῷ here, and the structure of the text seems to indicate they all have the same antecedent.
καὶ ἐθαυμάσθη ὅλη ἡ γῆ ὀπίσω τοῦ θηρίου, καὶ προσεκύνησαν τῷ δράκοντι ὅτι ἔδωκεν τὴν ἐξουσίαν τῷ θηρίῳ, καὶ προσεκύνησαν τῷ θηρίῳ λέγοντες· Τίς ὅμοιος τῷ θηρίῳ, καὶ τίς δύναται πολεμῆσαι μετ’ αὐτοῦ;

Καὶ ἐδόθη αὐτῷ στόμα λαλοῦν μεγάλα καὶ βλασφημίας, καὶ ἐδόθη αὐτῷ ἐξουσία ποιῆσαι μῆνας τεσσεράκοντα δύο. καὶ ἤνοιξε τὸ στόμα αὐτοῦ εἰς βλασφημίας πρὸς τὸν θεόν, βλασφημῆσαι τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ καὶ τὴν σκηνὴν αὐτοῦ, τοὺς ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ σκηνοῦντας. καὶ ἐδόθη αὐτῷ ποιῆσαι πόλεμον μετὰ τῶν ἁγίων καὶ νικῆσαι αὐτούς, καὶ ἐδόθη αὐτῷ ἐξουσία ἐπὶ πᾶσαν φυλὴν καὶ λαὸν καὶ γλῶσσαν καὶ ἔθνος. καὶ προσκυνήσουσιν αὐτὸν πάντες οἱ κατοικοῦντες ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, οὗ οὐ γέγραπται τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τῆς ζωῆς τοῦ ἀρνίου τοῦ ἐσφαγμένου ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου.
As I read this, it tells us ἔδωκεν τὴν ἐξουσίαν τῷ θηρίῳ, then gives us four ways that this happened each one starting with καὶ ἐδόθη αὐτῷ.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

WAnderson
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Re: Pronoun/antecedent question in Rev 13.5

Post by WAnderson » January 30th, 2017, 4:32 pm

Thank you, seems I missed the forest for the trees. As difficult as Rev is to work through, I must say that all the various patterns within the text are absolutely fascinating, and if nothing else it teaches you how to look at the bigger (grammatical) picture.

As an aside, I find it difficult to believe a mere human mind concocted all those patterns and intertextualities.
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Pronoun/antecedent question in Rev 13.5

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 30th, 2017, 9:44 pm

WAnderson wrote:Thank you, seems I missed the forest for the trees. As difficult as Rev is to work through, I must say that all the various patterns within the text are absolutely fascinating, and if nothing else it teaches you how to look at the bigger (grammatical) picture.

As an aside, I find it difficult to believe a mere human mind concocted all those patterns and intertextualities.
Large groups making collective statements about God in unison, perhaps with the accompaniment of instruments, often employ structured texts. In our modern age we often arrange the line of similar length, each with its own line. In this case:
Jonathan Robie wrote:
καὶ ἐθαυμάσθη ὅλη ἡ γῆ ὀπίσω τοῦ θηρίου, καὶ προσεκύνησαν τῷ δράκοντι ὅτι ἔδωκεν τὴν ἐξουσίαν τῷ θηρίῳ, καὶ προσεκύνησαν τῷ θηρίῳ λέγοντες·

Τίς ὅμοιος τῷ θηρίῳ, καὶ τίς δύναται πολεμῆσαι μετ’ αὐτοῦ;
Καὶ ἐδόθη αὐτῷ στόμα λαλοῦν μεγάλα καὶ βλασφημίας,
καὶ ἐδόθη αὐτῷ ἐξουσία ποιῆσαι μῆνας τεσσεράκοντα δύο.
καὶ ἤνοιξε τὸ στόμα αὐτοῦ εἰς βλασφημίας πρὸς τὸν θεόν,
βλασφημῆσαι τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ καὶ τὴν σκηνὴν αὐτοῦ, τοὺς ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ σκηνοῦντας.
καὶ ἐδόθη αὐτῷ ποιῆσαι πόλεμον μετὰ τῶν ἁγίων καὶ νικῆσαι αὐτούς,
καὶ ἐδόθη αὐτῷ ἐξουσία ἐπὶ πᾶσαν φυλὴν καὶ λαὸν καὶ γλῶσσαν καὶ ἔθνος.
καὶ προσκυνήσουσιν αὐτὸν πάντες οἱ κατοικοῦντες ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς,
οὗ οὐ γέγραπται τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τῆς ζωῆς
τοῦ ἀρνίου τοῦ ἐσφαγμένου ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου.
Approx. 20 vowels per line.
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(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Pronoun/antecedent question in Rev 13.5

Post by Jonathan Robie » February 3rd, 2017, 9:33 am

WAnderson wrote:Thank you, seems I missed the forest for the trees. As difficult as Rev is to work through, I must say that all the various patterns within the text are absolutely fascinating, and if nothing else it teaches you how to look at the bigger (grammatical) picture.
I'm playing with ways to display the text that help you see the bigger grammatical picture. What do you think of this (automatically generated) presentation? I'm trying to make the parallelism obvious.
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Screen Shot 2017-02-03 at 8.24.39 AM.png (52.08 KiB) Viewed 693 times
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Screen Shot 2017-02-03 at 8.24.54 AM.png (30.48 KiB) Viewed 693 times
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Screen Shot 2017-02-03 at 8.25.24 AM.png (36.98 KiB) Viewed 693 times
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

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