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Can a genitive be both objective and subjective?

Posted: November 13th, 2018, 7:20 am
by Bill Ross
In this answer on another forum it is proposed that the genitive be understood as both subjective and objective since it is both the teaching that Jesus taught and the teaching about Jesus are essential:
CSB 2 John 1:9 Anyone who does not remain in Christ's teaching but goes beyond it does not have God. The one who remains in that teaching, this one has both the Father and the Son.

1:9 πᾶς ὁ παραβαίνων καὶ μὴ μένων ἐν τῇ διδαχῇ τοῦ Χριστοῦ Θεὸν οὐκ ἔχει ὁ μένων ἐν **τῇ διδαχῇ τοῦ Χριστοῦ** οὗτος καὶ τὸν πατέρα καὶ τὸν υἱὸν ἔχει
My understanding is that it is either one or the other but it occurs to me that I don't remember that being addressed in any grammar.

Must it be one or the other? Where is it documented?

Thanks,

Bill Ross

Re: Can a genitive be both objective and subjective?

Posted: November 13th, 2018, 11:13 am
by Barry Hofstetter
Or it could be possessive... :shock:

Re: Can a genitive be both objective and subjective?

Posted: November 13th, 2018, 12:35 pm
by Jonathan Robie
Hmmmm, so the possibilities would be:
  • The things that Christ taught
  • The things that were taught about Christ
  • Both? If I understand correctly, the original post asks if it can mean both the things that Christ taught and the things that were taught about Christ.
  • The teachings that belong to Christ (Barry's possessive genitive)
Does that accurately summarize the possibilities we are considering?

Re: Can a genitive be both objective and subjective?

Posted: November 13th, 2018, 8:23 pm
by MAubrey
No.

Wallace wants it to be the case, but it's impossible unless you make it mean something it doesn't mean. The subjective/objective distinction is predicated on mapping transitive clause syntax onto a noun phrase

The army destroyed the city.
The army's destruction of the city.

Something cannot be a subject and the object at the same time.

Re: Can a genitive be both objective and subjective?

Posted: November 14th, 2018, 9:49 am
by Jonathan Robie
I think this is one of those times where each interpretation makes good theological sense, but these are two different interpretations of the same sentence, with different grammatical roles.

Re: Can a genitive be both objective and subjective?

Posted: January 22nd, 2019, 9:29 pm
by Bill Ross
MAubrey wrote:
November 13th, 2018, 8:23 pm
No.

Wallace wants it to be the case, but it's impossible unless you make it mean something it doesn't mean. The subjective/objective distinction is predicated on mapping transitive clause syntax onto a noun phrase

The army destroyed the city.
The army's destruction of the city.

Something cannot be a subject and the object at the same time.
I was just reviewing the genitive on this site: https://www.ntgreek.org/pdf/genitive_case.pdf

It appears they suggest that there exists a "plenary genitive" that is both. Is this chart controversial/wrong or am I missing some naunce?

Re: Can a genitive be both objective and subjective?

Posted: January 22nd, 2019, 10:00 pm
by Stirling Bartholomew
MAubrey wrote:
November 13th, 2018, 8:23 pm
The subjective/objective distinction is predicated on mapping transitive clause syntax onto a noun phrase ...
A dubious procedure. Carl Conrad addressed this eons ago if someone can find it. Try searching for "adnominal genitive."

Re: Can a genitive be both objective and subjective?

Posted: January 22nd, 2019, 10:36 pm
by Stirling Bartholomew
Bill Ross wrote:
January 22nd, 2019, 9:29 pm

I was just reviewing the genitive on this site: https://www.ntgreek.org/pdf/genitive_case.pdf

It appears they suggest that there exists a "plenary genitive" that is both. Is this chart controversial/wrong or am I missing some naunce?
Bill,

What you are missing is that the syntax of μὴ μένων ἐν τῇ διδαχῇ τοῦ Χριστοῦ is not in need of clarification. Barry already told you. It's possessive or something like possessive. The teaching associated with Christ. No need to transform τῇ διδαχῇ τοῦ Χριστοῦ into a transitive clause.

Re: Can a genitive be both objective and subjective?

Posted: January 22nd, 2019, 10:46 pm
by Bill Ross
Sorry, I meant nuance in the description of the genitive in the pdf. So then the "plenary genitive" is just plain myth and the pdf is wrong? I was fine with the explanation but when I saw that I figured I'd better run it by y'all. I don't like believing something based on a dubious source.

Re: Can a genitive be both objective and subjective?

Posted: January 23rd, 2019, 8:45 am
by Barry Hofstetter
Bill Ross wrote:
January 22nd, 2019, 10:46 pm
Sorry, I meant nuance in the description of the genitive in the pdf. So then the "plenary genitive" is just plain myth and the pdf is wrong? I was fine with the explanation but when I saw that I figured I'd better run it by y'all. I don't like believing something based on a dubious source.
Quite. The "plenary genitive" appears to be the "genitive of I can't make up my mind what kind of genitive this is..." :lol: