Help for a translation

Grammar questions which are not related to any specific text.
felicitas
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Help for a translation

Post by felicitas » June 16th, 2019, 12:59 pm

πολλην χαριν, ω τεκνον, τοıς γονευσıν οφειλομεν και ενθυμεισθαι σε οτι δις αμαρτανει ο εις τους γονεας αμαρτανων

Hello guys, I started to learn ancient greek by myself. I'm trying to translate this sentence. Can anyone help me?

ω τεκνον = vocative
My son, because of many graces,
here the verb ὀφείλω which means to be in debt or with inf. have to do.
τοıς γονευσıν and I thought this dative noun goes with the verb ὀφείλω
but here there is a inf. ενθυμεισθαι which means think of. Does it goes with ὀφείλω?
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Peng Huiguo
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Re: Help for a translation

Post by Peng Huiguo » June 17th, 2019, 2:23 am

πολλην χαριν is greeting, "much happiness to you".

You're right regarding ω τεκνον.

οφειλομεν means to be obligated, ie. with respect to parents (τοıς γονευσıν) be filial. The ομεν ending has a hortatory sense, "let us be...".

ενθυμεισθαι is a present middle/passive infinitive meaning "be reminded". An infinitive relates its underlying verb to another verb (here οφειλομεν) in some way (cause, result, purpose, etc); just go with the contextual thrust and translate accordingly. σε is the subject of ενθυμεισθαι (an infinitive's subject is in accusative case) and is kind of redundant.

So,
Greetings, o child. Let's be filial to our parents, being mindful that one who wrongs his/her parents does doubly wrong.
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Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Help for a translation

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » June 17th, 2019, 8:55 am

This doesn't appear in any ancient source I could identify. Perhaps a made up sentence in some unpublished source.
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

Jason Hare
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Re: Help for a translation

Post by Jason Hare » June 17th, 2019, 9:26 am

dimi wrote:
June 17th, 2019, 2:23 am
οφειλομεν means to be obligated, ie. with respect to parents (τοıς γονευσıν) be filial. The ομεν ending has a hortatory sense, "let us be...".
Shouldn't the hortatory be in the subjunctive rather than the indicative? τοῖς γονεῦσıν ὀφείλομεν should just be read as "we are obligated to our parents," as a statement.

πολλὴν χάριν, ὦ τέκνον, τοῖς γονεῦσıν ὀφείλομεν καὶ ἐνθυμεῖσθαί σε ὅτι δὶς ἁμαρτάνει ὁ εἰς τοὺς γονέας ἁμαρτάνων.

I'd read χάριν as the direct object of ὀφείλειν.

We owe our parents great thanks, child, even to care for you, since anyone who sins against his own parents sins twice.
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Jason A. Hare
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Peng Huiguo
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Re: Help for a translation

Post by Peng Huiguo » June 17th, 2019, 9:35 am

Jason, you're right regarding the hortatory subjunctive. I'm not sure about your interpretation of the whole sentence though.
Last edited by Peng Huiguo on June 17th, 2019, 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Help for a translation

Post by Barry Hofstetter » June 17th, 2019, 9:38 am

Dimi and Felicitas, make sure that you have notified a moderator concerning your real names so we can change your screen names according to B-Greek policy.
felicitas wrote:πολλην χαριν, ω τεκνον, τοıς γονευσıν οφειλομεν και ενθυμεισθαι σε οτι δις αμαρτανει ο εις τους γονεας αμαρτανων
dimi wrote:
June 17th, 2019, 2:23 am

πολλην χαριν is greeting, "much happiness to you".

You're right regarding ω τεκνον.

οφειλομεν means to be obligated, ie. with respect to parents (τοıς γονευσıν) be filial. The ομεν ending has a hortatory sense, "let us be...".

ενθυμεισθαι is a present middle/passive infinitive meaning "be reminded". An infinitive relates its underlying verb to another verb (here οφειλομεν) in some way (cause, result, purpose, etc); just go with the contextual thrust and translate accordingly. σε is the subject of ενθυμεισθαι (an infinitive's subject is in accusative case) and is kind of redundant.

So,
Greetings, o child. Let's be filial to our parents, being mindful that one who wrongs his/her parents does doubly wrong.
Most of this is wrong.

1. χαρὶν ὀφείλειν means to owe thanks, to be under obligation.

2. ὀφείλομεν is indicative, not subjunctive, and the sense is not hortatory.

3. ἐνθυμεῖσθαι is often a middle deponent, "to be mindful of, to take thought for."

4. Your translation above leaves out σέ. I know you comment above that it's "kind of redundant" but it's not, and the beginning student has to be mindful (!) of these sorts of things.

it would be helpful to have the context for this. Is it an exercise in a beginning text? It reminds me of a line out of one of the non-literary papyri, and it's actually a bit difficult, particularly with the placement of καί, which can only be an adverbial use here.

I would render something like "Child, we are under great obligation to our parents even for you to be mindful that the one who sins against his parents sins twice."
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
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Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
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Jason Hare
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Re: Help for a translation

Post by Jason Hare » June 17th, 2019, 9:43 am

dimi wrote:
June 17th, 2019, 9:35 am
Jason, you're right regarding the hortatory subjunctive. I'm not sure about your interpretation of the whole sentence though.
No problem. We all have our different readings of texts. ;)
If there were more context, we might be able to come to some agreement.

For the purposes of housekeeping, have you not been contacted by the moderators regarding changing your username? We need to get you in line with the group policy, by which we all must be identified by our first and last name. Let one of us know, and we'll get your username changed for you. It's a requirement we've had since the old days. We don't permit anonymous participation.
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Peng Huiguo
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Re: Help for a translation

Post by Peng Huiguo » June 17th, 2019, 9:44 am

I have notified a mod regarding my name long before. twice. I was wondering why it remains.
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Jason Hare
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Re: Help for a translation

Post by Jason Hare » June 17th, 2019, 9:46 am

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
June 17th, 2019, 9:38 am
I would render something like "Child, we are under great obligation to our parents even for you to be mindful that the one who sins against his parents sins twice."
I took both χάριν and ενθυμεῖσθαι as objects of ὀφείλομεν. That is, we owe our parents thanks and we also owe them to look after you.
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Jason A. Hare
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Jason Hare
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Re: Help for a translation

Post by Jason Hare » June 17th, 2019, 9:47 am

dimi wrote:
June 17th, 2019, 9:44 am
I have notified a mod regarding my name long before. twice. I was wondering why it remains.
I don't remember a message from you. Could you send me a PM. I'll fix it right now. :ugeek:

And I certainly apologize on our behalf if we got the message but missed it. Thanks for your attention to this.
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Jason A. Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel

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