Septuagint translation of Daniel 11:35

Grammar questions which are not related to any specific text.
Devenios Doulenios
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Re: Septuagint translation of Daniel 11:35

Post by Devenios Doulenios »

WSTroupe,

I don't think we can appeal to Jesus himself making a distinction between the words συντέλεια and τέλος, because he was speaking to a local (partly, at least) Jewish audience, including his apostles, in Jerusalem. Therefore, he likely was speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic, not Greek. If there is any distinction, it was made by Matthew, not Jesus. So far, however, I'm not convinced there is a difference. (And I agree that the attempt to see a real difference in ἀγαπῶ and φιλῶ in Peter's interview with Jesus is a failure, especially given John's own usage elsewhere in his Gospel.) Not that I buy the argument that Jesus couldn't speak Greek---such interactions as he had with the Roman centurion whose servant he healed, and the interview with Pilate surely would have been in Greek, the film The Passion of the Christ not withstanding.

Δεβένιος Δουλένιος
Dewayne Dulaney
Δεβένιος Δουλένιος

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"Ὁδοὶ δύο εἰσί, μία τῆς ζωῆς καὶ μία τοῦ θανάτου."--Διδαχή Α, α'
WStroupe
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Re: Septuagint translation of Daniel 11:35

Post by WStroupe »

Devenios,

You make an excellent point about making an appeal to Jesus himself - yes, it would have had to have been Matthew and not Jesus.

However, Matthew was inspired by God when he wrote his Gospel account, so I think that fact (I accept that as a fact) does bring the Divine authority into the picture. But I take your correction amiably.
William J. Stroupe

"God's Word is alive and exerts power..." Hebrews 4:12
Devenios Doulenios
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Re: Septuagint translation of Daniel 11:35

Post by Devenios Doulenios »

WStroupe: (Could we have a first name?)

Thanks for taking this correction of mine in the right spirit.

As it happens, I agree with you about the divine inspiration of Matthew. And of Jesus. However, here we have to deal with linguistic questions, especially Greek ones, with theology taking a seat in the background. A point not easy to keep in mind, or to keep in practice, since we are dealing with a document, or set of them, produced for theological purposes. None the less, we must try.
Dewayne Dulaney
Δεβένιος Δουλένιος

Blog: https://letancientvoicesspeak.wordpress.com/

"Ὁδοὶ δύο εἰσί, μία τῆς ζωῆς καὶ μία τοῦ θανάτου."--Διδαχή Α, α'
WStroupe
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Re: Septuagint translation of Daniel 11:35

Post by WStroupe »

My first name is William.

I'm glad we agree on the divine inspiration - and I also know what you say about setting that aside here in favor of linguistic questions is important, and I will do my best to abide by that policy.

I want to sincerely thank Devenios, S Walch and Jonathon for all the valuable help you've given me on this Topic. Very, very much appreciated!
William J. Stroupe

"God's Word is alive and exerts power..." Hebrews 4:12
Devenios Doulenios
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Re: Septuagint translation of Daniel 11:35

Post by Devenios Doulenios »

You are most welcome, William!

And congrats on venturing into reading the Septuagint. Many students of Koine never take the plunge, just stick with the NT. I think they're missing out on some great reading in Greek. (That doesn't mean the Greek itself is always great, mind. But, it's still worth reading.)
Dewayne Dulaney
Δεβένιος Δουλένιος

Blog: https://letancientvoicesspeak.wordpress.com/

"Ὁδοὶ δύο εἰσί, μία τῆς ζωῆς καὶ μία τοῦ θανάτου."--Διδαχή Α, α'
Devenios Doulenios
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Re: Septuagint translation of Daniel 11:35

Post by Devenios Doulenios »

And when it's not quite normal Greek, that can also be an incentive to learn Hebrew, which is always a plus! :D
Dewayne Dulaney
Δεβένιος Δουλένιος

Blog: https://letancientvoicesspeak.wordpress.com/

"Ὁδοὶ δύο εἰσί, μία τῆς ζωῆς καὶ μία τοῦ θανάτου."--Διδαχή Α, α'
WStroupe
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Re: Septuagint translation of Daniel 11:35

Post by WStroupe »

Yes, what I like most about the Septuagint is that it does afford an opportunity to delve into both the Greek and the Hebrew! The insights gained are well worth the effort, too!
William J. Stroupe

"God's Word is alive and exerts power..." Hebrews 4:12
James Spinti
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Re: Septuagint translation of Daniel 11:35

Post by James Spinti »

The LXX is a complicated beast. That being said, you would benefit from taking a look at Muraoka's Hebrew-Greek comparisons in the appendix to Hatch and Redpath (repr. Baker Academic). For Hebrew קץ (kēṣ), he lists 16 different Greek words/phrases that are used (p. 339). Based on that, is seems pretty difficult to define קץ (kēṣ) as simply as you do. Many things go into why a LXX translator uses a specific Greek word—and when you get into Daniel it gets even more complicated because of the recensions. Books and dissertations have been and are being written on LXX translation technique (I just finished editing one for SBL Press).

Brenton's edition is actually from the mid-1800s, Swete's, which is what Biblehub is using, is a bit later; both have been supplanted by Ralhf-Hanhart and especially the Göttingen LXX, which I don't currently own, so can't check what they say. But, Rahlf-Hanhart don't list a variant on that verse in either the Old Greek or Theodotian, so I wonder where Swete found it?

I definitely don't want to discourage you—I was a beginner (and still am in many ways) and remember how proud I was of getting a copy of Brenton's LXX—and then had someone pop my bubble by telling me that it wasn't as good as Rahlf's because there wasn't an apparatus criticus! So, keep on digging, but be aware that LXX scholarship is full of landmines. If you are truly interested in finding more, read a good LXX introduction. Jobes & Silva's Invitation to the Septuagint, 2nd ed. (Baker Academic, 2015) comes to mind, but there are others, such as Dine's (Routledge; the title escapes me right now).

And as for translation in general, see the marvelous link that Mike Atip posted where Mark Ward quotes from Moises Silva (https://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vi ... 939#p37939). I was hoping someone would post it. Another great link is to a quotation from N.T. Wright on word studies (https://anebooks.blogspot.com/2010/03/p ... tions.html), where he compares Greek vocabulary to a 3-year-old child. Wonderful word picture! At the time I read it, I had a couple of grandkids about that age, and so could definitely relate!

By the by, Greg Lanier and Will Ross put out a Reader's Edition of the LXX (Hendrickson/Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft) that is excellent. It's two volumes, and expensive, but worth the price for being able to get a feel for the LXX without getting too lost in the lexicon. I'm a great believer in reader's editions, they get you familiar with the language quickly—if you don't use them as a crutch instead of a tool. I've used them to great effect in Greek, Latin, and Hebrew.

When I used to teach Greek, I would use the word picture of overlapping clouds. In the center cloud was the word being translated. The target language has multiple words that overlap, but never entirely overlay that cloud, so you have a flower-like drawing. The translator's job is to discern which particular word in the target language fits the nuance of the word in that context. Now, throw in over two thousand years and a third language (English), and you have a three-dimensional figure where you are trying to discern what the Greek translator meant when he was trying to discern what the Hebrew author meant—and then throw in the textual variants…it's complicated!

Interestingly, before the Reformation, the church fathers saw the variants as a blessing from God, bringing out the various nuances of what he was trying to transmit. It wasn't until the fights over the Vulgate vs. the LXX vs. the MT that the variants became a problem. For more, see Ron Hendel, "The Dream of a Perfect Text," in Steps to a New Edition of the Hebrew Bible (SBL Press, 2016). I like that!

Hope that helps more than hinders,
James
Proofreading and copyediting of ancient Near Eastern and biblical studies monographs
Jonathan Robie
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Re: Septuagint translation of Daniel 11:35

Post by Jonathan Robie »

James Spinti wrote: July 10th, 2022, 11:55 am The LXX is a complicated beast. That being said, you would benefit from taking a look at Muraoka's Hebrew-Greek comparisons in the appendix to Hatch and Redpath (repr. Baker Academic). For Hebrew קץ (kēṣ), he lists 16 different Greek words/phrases that are used (p. 339). Based on that, is seems pretty difficult to define קץ (kēṣ) as simply as you do.
For instance, consider the very first time קץ is used - let's look in Hebrew, ESVUK, and LXX:

Genesis 4:3
וַֽיְהִ֖י מִקֵּ֣ץ יָמִ֑ים וַיָּבֵ֨א קַ֜יִן מִפְּרִ֧י הָֽאֲדָמָ֛ה מִנְחָ֖ה לַֽיהוָֽה׃
In the course of time Cain brought to the LORD an offering of the fruit of the ground
καὶ ἐγένετο μεθ᾽ ἡμέρας ἤνεγκεν Καιν ἀπὸ τῶν καρπῶν τῆς γῆς θυσίαν τῷ κυρίῳ,

Or here:

Genesis 16:3
וַתִּקַּ֞ח שָׂרַ֣י אֵֽשֶׁת־אַבְרָ֗ם אֶת־הָגָ֤ר הַמִּצְרִית֙ שִׁפְחָתָ֔הּ מִקֵּץ֙ עֶ֣שֶׂר שָׁנִ֔ים לְשֶׁ֥בֶת אַבְרָ֖ם בְּאֶ֣רֶץ כְּנָ֑עַן וַתִּתֵּ֥ן אֹתָ֛הּ לְאַבְרָ֥ם אִישָׁ֖הּ ל֥וֹ לְאִשָּֽׁה׃
So, after Abram had lived ten years in the land of Canaan, Sarai, Abram's wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her servant, and gave her to Abram her husband as a wife.
καὶ λαβοῦσα Σαρα ἡ γυνὴ Αβραμ Αγαρ τὴν Αἰγυπτίαν τὴν ἑαυτῆς παιδίσκην— μετὰ δέκα ἔτη τοῦ οἰκῆσαι Αβραμ ἐν γῇ Χανααν— καὶ ἔδωκεν αὐτὴν Αβραμ τῷ ἀνδρὶ αὐτῆς αὐτῷ γυναῖκα.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
WStroupe
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Re: Septuagint translation of Daniel 11:35

Post by WStroupe »

James,
You said: Rahlf-Hanhart don't list a variant on that verse in either the Old Greek or Theodotian
Does Rahlf-Hanhart employ συντέλεια or does it employ πέρας or some other at Dan. 11:35?

I looked on Amazon and I can get the Rahlf-Hanhart for about $125, so not expensive.

Thanks!
William J. Stroupe

"God's Word is alive and exerts power..." Hebrews 4:12
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