Nominative use of αὐτος

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David Ting
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Nominative use of αὐτος

Post by David Ting » August 18th, 2011, 3:34 am

Do we have to change the gender, number of αὐτος to conform to object?

For example:
The same sinners were receiving the gospel of love and peace with joy.
οἱ αὐτος ἁμαρτωλοι ἐσεχον το εὐαγγελιον ἀγαπης και εἰρηνης συν χαρᾳ.

In the translation above, shall we use οἱ αὐτοι ἁμαρτωλοι instead of οἱ αὐτος ἁμαρτωλοι?

Thank you.
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: Nominative use of αὐτος

Post by Stephen Carlson » August 18th, 2011, 8:11 am

David Ting wrote:In the translation above, shall we use οἱ αὐτοι ἁμαρτωλοι instead of οἱ αὐτος ἁμαρτωλοι?
Yes
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Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
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David Lim
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Re: Nominative use of αὐτος

Post by David Lim » August 18th, 2011, 9:14 am

David Ting wrote:Do we have to change the gender, number of αὐτος to conform to object?
What do you mean by "nominative use"?
"αυτος" can function as a pronoun or an adjective or an intensive pronoun.
When it is in the attributive position, it functions as an adjective like "same" ("τον αυτον λογον" in Matt 26:44, "περι του αυτου" in Mark 10:10, "εν τω αυτω κριματι" in Luke 23:40).
Otherwise it functions as either a pronoun or an intensive pronoun ("προορισας ημας εις υιοθεσιαν δια ιησου χριστου εις αυτον" in Eph 1:5, "προεθετο εν αυτω" in Eph 1:9, "υπο των αμαρτωλων εις αυτον αντιλογιαν" in Heb 12:3). In all cases the case and gender and number have to conform.
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David Ting
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Re: Nominative use of αὐτος

Post by David Ting » August 18th, 2011, 9:43 am

David,

Thank you for the examples and explanation. What I mean, in fact, should be "using αὐτος in the attribute or predicate position". Now I understand that it should conform to the case, number and gender.

However, I came across the following examples under the same section that explain the use of αὐτος in the attribute or predicate position in the textbook:

αὐτος λεγω - I myself say. (In this case, why it is not ἐγω λεγω? Do we always have to use αὐτος regardless the person? )
αὐτος λεγεις - You yourself say. (Why not συ λεγεις?)

For "You(pl, feminine) yourselves say," should we translate it to "αὐται λεγετε."?
For "They(masculine) themselves say," translated as "αὐτoi λεγουσιν."?

Thank you.

David
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David Lim
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Re: Nominative use of αὐτος

Post by David Lim » August 18th, 2011, 10:22 am

David Ting wrote:However, I came across the following examples under the same section that explain the use of αὐτος in the attribute or predicate position in the textbook:

αὐτος λεγω - I myself say. (In this case, why it is not ἐγω λεγω? Do we always have to use αὐτος regardless the person? )
αὐτος λεγεις - You yourself say. (Why not συ λεγεις?)
In fact, there are zero instances of these phrases in the entire new testament and LXX! This is not the usual way. "λεγω" is enough if we want to say "I say", and "εγω λεγω" will certainly do the job if I wanted to say "I myself say" (Matt 21:27, 1 Cor 7:12).
David Ting wrote:For "You(pl, feminine) yourselves say," should we translate it to "αὐται λεγετε."?
For "They(masculine) themselves say," translated as "αὐτoi λεγουσιν."?
Please don't; like the earlier two, they do not sound like Greek to me :)

It seems to me that the use of "αυτος" as an intensive pronoun only occurs when the noun itself is also mentioned ("αυτος δαυιδ λεγει" in Luke 20:42, "ο πεμψας με πατηρ αυτος" in John 5:37, "αυτον οιμαι τον κοσμον χωρησαι" in John 21:25, "αυτος ο υιος" in 1 Cor 15:28).
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David Ting
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Re: Nominative use of αὐτος

Post by David Ting » August 19th, 2011, 4:33 am

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Please don't; like the earlier two, they do not sound like Greek to me
After seeing your explanation, I think I should ignore the two examples from the book.
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