Aorist indicative with future temporal reference

Exploring Albert Rijksbaron's book, The Syntax and Semantics of the Verb in Classical Greek: An Introduction, to see how it would need to be adapted for Koine Greek. Much of the focus will be on finding Koine examples to illustrate the same points Rijksbaron illustrates with Classical examples, and places where Koine Greek diverges from Classical Greek.
RandallButh
Posts: 1020
Joined: May 13th, 2011, 4:01 am

Re: Aorist indicative with future temporal reference

Post by RandallButh » August 17th, 2019, 8:01 pm

The parade is a poor analogy if it misses the point. Are the end points and the whole in view (perfective) or not (imperfective)? Whether accomplished from a helicopter or bleacher is a distraction and irrelevant. Again, this shows how metaphor/picture can mislead and trip people up if not careful.
0 x



Daniel Semler
Posts: 127
Joined: February 18th, 2019, 7:45 pm

Re: Aorist indicative with future temporal reference

Post by Daniel Semler » August 17th, 2019, 10:08 pm

Stephen Nelson wrote:
August 17th, 2019, 6:17 pm

Also, I gleaned some interesting facts about the famous "Parade Analogy" in "The Greek Verb Revisited" (Christopher Thomson's aritcle on "What is Aspect", pg. 13-80). I highly recommend you get that book, BTW.
I have a copy as it turns out - couldn't remember if I'd bought it or not :) - on Kindle but there it has no page numbers alas. Anyhow I can easily find the article from above.
Stephen Nelson wrote:
August 17th, 2019, 6:17 pm
The analogy was originally invented by a Russian linguist named Alexander Isachenko, and was applied to the Russian language. I have a degree in Russian and I was not familiar with Isachenko's work, nor had I ever heard of his analogy before I started studying Greek. I've emailed some of my former Russian professors to see if anyone can dig up the original text for me, because I can't seem to find it via Google. This kind of blew my mind because Russian is a highly aspectual language where nearly all verbs have perfective and imperfective forms - and ALL of the finite forms of verbs semantically encode TENSE in Russian (albeit secondary to aspect, just like in Greek).

Anyways, according to Thomson, Isachenko compared perfective verbs to watching a parade from the stand (with a view of the beginning and end). And he compared imperfective verbs to being a participant in the parade (without a view of the beginning or end).
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/25e9/2 ... 25048b.pdf refers to his paper, likely in Russian so not much good to me but you'll be ok I'm sure.

Isacˇenko, A. V.1960Grammaticˇeskij stroj russkogo jazyka v sopostavlenii s slovackim—Cˇast’vtoraja: morfologija[The Grammatical Structure of Russian in Comparison with Slovak—Part Two: Morphology]. Bratislava: Izdatel’stvo akademiinauk.

Thx
D
0 x

Eeli Kaikkonen
Posts: 431
Joined: June 2nd, 2011, 7:49 am
Location: Finland
Contact:

Re: Aorist indicative with future temporal reference

Post by Eeli Kaikkonen » August 18th, 2019, 5:24 pm

RandallButh wrote:
August 17th, 2019, 8:01 pm
The parade is a poor analogy if it misses the point. Are the end points and the whole in view (perfective) or not (imperfective)? Whether accomplished from a helicopter or bleacher is a distraction and irrelevant. Again, this shows how metaphor/picture can mislead and trip people up if not careful.
No matter what you use, formal technical jargon or metaphors, there will always be people who miss the point or misunderstand - or just plain misuse your words. Just remember what made the OP to start this thread...
The author's counter to that was an appeal to Porter and his tenseless Greek verb theory. So, according to him, κατὰ καιρόν establishes some kind of eschatological context, and therefor the aorist can be timeless or prophtetic/proleptic; but not necessarily past time (or not likely past tense). He uses this to draw a fringe conclusion - that Paul did not believe that Christ's death, burial and resurrection had happened yet in his lifetime.
I very much doubt if Porter himself would agree with that guy, even if the conclusion was put aside and only the linguistic semantics discussed. In the hands of wannabe Bible interpreters any explanation of linguistic phenomenon, metaphor or not, right or wrong, is dangerous. I can easily imagine that "having the endpoints in view" can be theologically-exegetically misused as much as a lively metaphor.
1 x

Stephen Nelson
Posts: 46
Joined: April 28th, 2019, 1:51 pm
Contact:

Re: Aorist indicative with future temporal reference

Post by Stephen Nelson » August 18th, 2019, 9:04 pm

Daniel Semler wrote:
August 17th, 2019, 10:08 pm
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/25e9/2 ... 25048b.pdf refers to his paper, likely in Russian so not much good to me but you'll be ok I'm sure.

Isacˇenko, A. V.1960Grammaticˇeskij stroj russkogo jazyka v sopostavlenii s slovackim—Cˇast’vtoraja: morfologija[The Grammatical Structure of Russian in Comparison with Slovak—Part Two: Morphology]. Bratislava: Izdatel’stvo akademiinauk.
Thank you! I got my hands on Isachenko's book (in Russian), with the original analogy.

Porter cites it on page 91 of his "Verbal Aspect" as follows:
Instead, a suggestive correlation has been made by the Russian scholar Isachenko, which is adopted here.
Let me draw the picture of a parade. If I am a television correspondent in the BBC helicopter flying over the parade, I view the parade or process in its immediacy from a vantage outside the action as "perfective," i.e. in its entirety as a single and complete whole.
If I am a spectator sitting in the grandstand watching the parade pass by in front of me, I view the process immersed within it as "imperfective," i.e. as an event in progress.
And if I am the parade manager considering all of the conditions in existence at this parade, including not only all the arrangements that are coming to fruition but all of the accompanying events that allow the parade to operate, I view the process not in its particulars or its immediacy but as "stative," i.e. as a condition or state of affairs in existence.
I'm a little confused on how the parade manager's perspective represents stative aspect. In any case, for comparison, here is the original analogy in Isachenko's context, which I've translated from Russian:
We'll try to clarify the essence of the general semantics (grammatical meaning) of Slavic (verbal) aspect with a clear example. When describing a process using imperfective aspect (for example, “I was rewriting”, “I am rewriting”), it's as if the speaker is within the unfolding of the process itself. He sees neither its beginning nor its end; and therefore cannot express this process as a closed, overall event.

The speaker’s point of view in this case can be compared to the point of view of a participant in the May Day Parade. This participant is moving along with the crowd. He see neither the beginning nor the end of the procession.

Expressing the process with perfective aspect (for example, “I rewrote”), the speaker stands outside the process, expressed by the verb form: therefore, he observes the process as a whole.

The speaker’s point of view in this case resembles that of the people standing on the podium during the May Day Parade: they see the beginning and end of the procession. So the parade leaves an overall impression on them. Graphically, both approaches to the tangible process could be depicted as follows:

Imperfective Aspect:

——————— x ————————
the speaker
is located as if within the process

Perfective Aspect

—————————————————
 {—————— v ———————}
           the speaker
is located as if outside the process, overlooking it as a whole

The above comparison, like any other comparison, can only be accepted with strong reservations. We will not hold to it rigidly. The semantics of verbal aspect, of course, lack the kind of concreteness that any graphic image could convey.
-The Grammatical Structure of Russian in Comparison with Slovak—Part Two: Morphology, pg. 133

As I mentioned, Thomson notes that this analogy has flaws, because Russian imperfective aspect can describe past situations in summary fashion. And he asserts that "Isachenko saw the totality expressed by perfective aspect as primarily temporal rather than spacial."

But Isachenko gives a clear disclaimer about the limitations of his own analogy. And he goes on to cites exceptions. So he isn't really missing anything and I wouldn't fault him. And he doesn't actually describe any temporal vs spacial dichotomy, as far as I can tell. The temporal reference of his Russian examples is completely unambiguous. Isachenko is simply not elaborating on tense in Russian, which is totally uncontroversial.
2 x

Stephen Nelson
Posts: 46
Joined: April 28th, 2019, 1:51 pm
Contact:

Re: Aorist indicative with future temporal reference

Post by Stephen Nelson » August 22nd, 2019, 2:15 pm

Bringing this back to the theme of my OP - having surveyed more of the literature on this topic and having analyzed several Greek examples (below) - it seems as though the majority of non-past aorists in the bible are traditionally translated into English with either present perfect or simple present tense constructions; not with future tense constructions. This seem to call into question the idea of the aorist's "spacial remoteness" (but I won't get into that).

I found more explicit future constructions in English translations of the OT (where the LXX displays ‘future’ aorists). I assume these translations using future constructions are in deference to the Hebrew (where I imagine Hebrew perfects are in use). But perhaps these translations also have some LXX influence (I haven't gone into too much detail here). When I compared these instances against translations directly from the Septuagint (Brenton & NETS), I found mostly literal past tense renditions of the ‘future’ aorists, in contrast with standard English translations of the OT.

There seems to be a lot of speculation and subjectivity involved in some these ‘future’ interpretations. And, most importantly, with so much being ‘subject to interpretation’, it does seem like the door may be open to (mis)interpretation – i.e. speculating that references by a NT author to events in the past should be re-interpreted as referring to the future (in some prophetic sense). Without completely objective and well-researched criteria for assessing ‘future’ aorists, I’m not sure yet how to adjudicate in favor of more traditional exegesis. And I sincerely doubt the original authors anticipated that they might be imparting ambiguity into their texts, since their readers presumably gleaned the authorial intent intuitively.

It’s odd that in Porter’s “Verbal Aspect” the term ‘proleptic aorist’ only comes up once in a footnote. He doesn’t provide many helpful examples of it. I would have expected him to marshal a lot more evidence, since it would bolster his overall thesis. Fanning, on the other hand, has a whole section dedicated to it, and he explains it in far more detail than Porter.

Fanning (Verbal Aspect in the NT Greek, 4.3.5, pg. 269) describes proleptic/futuristic aorists as “unusual” and “rather infrequent”. He divides them into two main categories with two sub-categories each:
  1. Straightforward instances where aorists are in the apodoses of conditional sentences with a future reference in the protases. These are subdivided into 2 categories:
    a. Proleptic aorists with an explicit condition (used with εἰ or ἐάν clauses)
    b. Proleptic aorists with an implied condition (used with participles, relative clauses, or ἵνα clauses)
  2. More ambiguous instances where aorists are in a statement that, by context, seems to point to the future, i.e. “as if it were already done”.
    a. LXX futuristic aorists - It is speculated that, since this usage is prominent in the Septuagint, that it may be the result of ‘mechanical’ translation of futuristic Hebrew perfects (sometimes understood as “true past tenses”), which were rendered into Greek with a variety of tense-forms; frequently in aorist.
    b. NT futuristic aorists – Even though these idioms supposedly occur sometimes in standard, non-Semitized Greek, they supposedly occur more frequently in the NT (especially in prophetic writing). This is explained as New Testament authors mimicking the style of scripture in Greek translation.
Even though Fanning states that there are native Greek examples of such ‘idioms’ outside of the bible (i.e. those referenced in point 2. above), he does not provide any examples. So I’ll simply list the examples he does give for each category, with comparisons to common English translations (NASB, NET, NIV, RSV, KJV).

1.a. Proleptic aorists with explicit conditions (with εἰ or ἐάν clauses):

Matt. 12:26 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... IV;RSV;KJV)
εἰ ὁ Σατανᾶς τὸν Σατανᾶν ἐκβάλλει, ἐφ’ ἑαυτὸν ἐμερίσθη
if Satan casts out Satan, he is (*was) divided against himself (NASB)
*Present (NASB lists “was” in the footnote)

Matt. 18:15 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... IV;RSV;KJV)
ἐάν σου ἀκούσῃ, ἐκέρδησας τὸν ἀδελφόν σου
If he listens to you, you *have won your brother. (NASB)
*Perfect

John 15:6 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... IV;RSV;KJV)
ἐὰν μή τις μένῃ ἐν ἐμοί, ἐβλήθη ἔξω ὡς τὸ κλῆμα καὶ ἐξηράνθη, καὶ συνάγουσιν αὐτὰ καὶ εἰς τὸ πῦρ βάλλουσιν καὶ καίεται.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he *is thrown away as a branch and *dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. (NASB)
*Present

Fanning notes regarding the above-mentioned examples - (it is possible that these aorists should be taken as gnomic, in parallel with the presents which follow; but it seems that the ἐάν clause sets the tone and gives the first part of the verse a futuristic sense)

1 Corinthians 7:28 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... IV;RSV;KJV)
ἐὰν δὲ καὶ γαμήσῃς, οὐχ ἥμαρτες. καὶ ἐὰν γήμῃ ἡ παρθένος, οὐχ ἥμαρτεν.
But if you marry, you *have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she *has not sinned. (NASB)
*Perfect, but RSV has present.

James 2:2-4 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... IV;RSV;KJV)
ἐὰν γὰρ […] τῷ πτωχῷ εἴπητε· […] οὐ διεκρίθητε ἐν ἑαυτοῖς, καὶ ἐγένεσθε κριταὶ διαλογισμῶν πονηρῶν;
For if […] you say to the poor man, […] *have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil motives? (NASB)
*English perfect. KJV paraphrases with a present construction.

1.b. Proleptic aorists with implied conditions (with participles, relative clauses, or ἵνα clauses):

Matthew 5:28 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... IV;RSV;KJV)
πᾶς ὁ βλέπων γυναῖκα πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν, ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ
everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her, *has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (NASB)
*English perfect

John 15:8 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... IV;RSV;KJV)
ἐν τούτῳ ἐδοξάσθη ὁ πατήρ μου, ἵνα καρπὸν πολὺν φέρητε καὶ γένησθε ἐμοὶ μαθηταί.
My Father *is glorified by this, that you bear (present subj) much fruit, and so prove (aor subj) to be My disciples. (NASB)
*Present

Galatians 5:4 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... IV;RSV;KJV)
κατηργήθητε ἀπὸ Χριστοῦ, οἵτινες ἐν νόμῳ δικαιοῦσθε, τῆς χάριτος ἐξεπέσατε.
You *have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (NASB)
*Perfect

Hebrews 4:10 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... IV;RSV;KJV)
ὁ γὰρ εἰσελθὼν εἰς τὴν κατάπαυσιν αὐτοῦ καὶ αὐτὸς κατέπαυσεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἔργων αὐτοῦ, ὥσπερ ἀπὸ τῶν ἰδίων ὁ θεός
For the one who has entered His rest *has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. (NASB)
*Perfect

1 Peter 3:6 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... IV;RSV;KJV)
ὡς Σάρρα ὑπήκουσεν τῷ Ἀβραάμ, κύριον αὐτὸν καλοῦσα· ἧς ἐγενήθητε τέκνα ἀγαθοποιοῦσαι καὶ μὴ φοβούμεναι μηδεμίαν πτόησιν
just as Sarah *obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you *have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear (NASB)
*Past/perfect

2.a. - LXX futuristic aorists:

Gen. 17:20 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... IV;RSV;KJV)
καὶ εὐλόγησα αὐτόν, καὶ αὐξανῶ αὐτὸν καὶ πληθυνῶ αὐτὸν σφόδρα· δώδεκα ἔθνη γεννήσει, καὶ δώσω αὐτὸν εἰς ἔθνος μέγα.
-I have blessed him, and will increase him and multiply him exceedingly; twelve nations shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. (Brenton)
-I have blessed him and will make him increase and will make him very numerous; he shall be the father of twelve nations, and I will appoint him as a great nation. (NETS)
Fanning notes - (after Abraham's prayer for Ishmael) 'I have heard you; behold, I will bless him [εὐλόγησα]'—followed by four Greek futures

Ps. 20(19):6(7) (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... IV;RSV;KJV)
νῦν ἔγνων ὅτι ἔσωσεν Κύριος τὸν χριστὸν αὐτοῦ· ἐπακούσεται αὐτοῦ ἐξ οὐρανοῦ ἁγίου αὐτοῦ,
-Now I knew that the Lord saves his anointed; he will hearken to him from his holy heaven; (Brenton)
-Now I knew that the Lord saved his anointed; he will hearken to him from his holy heaven; (NETS)

Ps. 36(35):12(13) (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... IV;RSV;KJV)
ἐκεῖ ἔπεσον πάντες οἱ ἐργαζόμενοι τὴν ἀνομίαν, ἐξώσθησαν καὶ οὐ μὴ δύνωνται στῆναι.
-There have all the workers of iniquity fallen: they are cast out, and shall not be able to stand. (Brenton)
-There those who practice lawlessness fell; they were thrust out and will be unable to stand. (NETS)
*Fanning notes – “as a conclusion to what began as a lament over the present prosperity of the wicked.”

Isa. 5:13-14 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... IV;RSV;KJV)
(13) τοίνυν αἰχμάλωτος ὁ λαός μου ἐγενήθη διὰ τὸ μὴ εἰδέναι αὐτοὺς τὸν κύριον, καὶ πλῆθος ἐγενήθη νεκρῶν διὰ λιμὸν καὶ δίψος ὕδατος. (14) καὶ ἐπλάτυνεν ὁ ᾅδης τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ καὶ διήνοιξεν τὸ στόμα αὐτοῦ τοῦ μὴ διαλιπεῖν, καὶ καταβήσονται οἱ ἔνδοξοι καὶ οἱ μεγάλοι καὶ οἱ πλούσιοι καὶ οἱ λοιμοὶ αὐτῆς.
-(13) Therefore my people have been taken captive, because they know not the Lord: and there has been a multitude of dead bodies, because of hunger and of thirst for water.
(14) Therefore hell has enlarged its desire and opened its mouth without ceasing: and her glorious and great, and her rich and her pestilent men shall go down into it. (Brenton)
-(13) Therefore my people have become captive, because they do not know the Lord; they have become a multitude of corpses, because of famine and thirst for water. (14) And Hades has enlarged its appetite and opened its mouth without ceasing; and her great and her rich and her pestilent shall go down. (NETS)

Isa. 9:6 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... IV;RSV;KJV)
ὅτι παιδίον ἐγεννήθη ἡμῖν, υἱὸς ἐδόθη ἡμῖν, οὗ ἡ ἀρχὴ ἐγενήθη ἐπὶ τοῦ ὤμου αὐτοῦ, καὶ καλεῖται τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Μεγάλης βουλῆς ἄγγελος· ἄξω γὰρ εἰρήνην ἐπὶ τοὺς ἄρχοντας καὶ ὑγείαν αὐτῷ.
-For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him. (Brenton)
-Because a child was born for us, a son also given to us, whose sovereignty was upon his shoulder, and he is named Messenger of Great Counsel, for I will bring peace upon the rulers, peace and health to him. (NETS)

Isa. 11:9 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... IV;RSV;KJV)
καὶ οὐ μὴ κακοποιήσουσιν οὐδὲ μὴ δύνωνται ἀπολέσαι οὐδένα ἐπὶ τὸ ὄρος τὸ ἅγιόν μου, ὅτι ἐνεπλήσθη ἡ σύμπασα τοῦ γνῶναι τὸν κύριον, ὡς ὕδωρ πολὺ κατακαλύψαι θαλάσσας.
-And they shall not hurt, nor shall they at all be able to destroy any one on my holy mountain: for the whole world is filled with the knowledge of the Lord, as much water covers the seas. (Brenton)
-And they will not hurt or be able to destroy anyone on my holy mountain, because the whole earth has been filled to know the Lord like much water to cover the seas. (NETS)
*Fanning notes that this chapter is “dominated by LXX futures”

Jer. 4:29 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... IV;RSV;KJV)
-ἀπὸ φωνῆς ἱππέως καὶ ἐντεταμένου τόξου ἀνεχώρησεν πᾶσα χώρα· εἰσέδυσαν εἰς τὰ σπήλαια, καὶ εἰς τὰ ἄλση ἐκρύβησαν, καὶ ἐπὶ τὰς πέτρας ἀνέβησαν· πᾶσα πόλις ἐγκατελείφθη, οὐ κατῴκει ἐν αὐταῖς ἄνθρωπος.
-The whole land has recoiled from the noise of the horseman and the bent bow; they have gone into[/color] the caves, and have hidden themselves in the groves, and have gone up upon the rocks: every city was abandoned, no man dwelt in them. (Brenton)
-At the noise of horseman and bent bow every country withdrew; they crawled into the caves, and they hid in groves, and they climbed upon rocks; every city was forsaken; no person lives in them. (NETS)

Hos. 10:7,15; 11:1 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... IV;RSV;KJV)
(7) ἀπέρριψεν Σαμάρεια βασιλέα αὐτῆς ὡς φρύγανον ἐπὶ προσώπου ὕδατος·
(15) οὕτως ποιήσω ὑμῖν, οἶκος τοῦ Ἰσραήλ, ἀπὸ προσώπου ἀδικίας κακιῶν ὑμῶν.
(11:1) ὄρθρου ἀπερίφησαν· ἀπερίφη βασιλεὺς Ἰσραήλ. Ὅτι νήπιος Ἰσραὴλ καὶ ἐγὼ ἠγάπησα αὐτόν, καὶ ἐξ Αἰγύπτου μετεκάλεσα τὰ τέκνα αὐτοῦ.
-(7) Samaria has cast off her king as a twig on the surface of the water.
(15) thus will I do to you, O house of Israel, because of the unrighteousness of your sins.
(11:1) Early in the morning were they cast off, the king of Israel has been cast off: for Israel is a child, and I loved him, and out of Egypt have I called his children.
(Brenton)
-(7) Samaria threw out her king like firewood upon the face of the water.
(15) Thus will I do to you, O house of Israel, because of your evil deeds.
(11:1) At dawn they were cast out; Israel’s king was cast out. For Israel was an infant, and I loved him, and out of Egypt I recalled his children. (NETS)
*Fanning notes that these aorists are “in context of Greek futures”

Amos 5:2 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... IV;RSV;KJV)
(Οἶκος Ἰσραὴλ) ἔπεσεν, οὐκέτι μὴ προσθήσει τοῦ ἀναστῆναι· παρθένος τοῦ Ἰσραὴλ ἔσφαλεν ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς αὐτοῦ, οὐκ ἔστιν ὁ ἀναστήσων αὐτήν.
-(The house of Israel) is fallen; it shall no more rise. The virgin of Israel has fallen upon his land; there is none that shall raise her up. (Brenton)
-(O house of Israel): She has fallen, no more to rise, the maiden Israel; she slipped upon her land; there is no one to raise her up. (NETS)
*Fanning notes that this is in “a vision of Israel's future 'funeral' if obedi¬ence does not come”

2.b. NT futuristic aorists

Mark 11:24 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... IV;RSV;KJV
διὰ τοῦτο λέγω ὑμῖν, πάντα ὅσα προσεύχεσθε καὶ αἰτεῖσθε, πιστεύετε ὅτι ἐλάβετε, καὶ ἔσται ὑμῖν.
Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you *have received them, and they will be granted you. (NASB)
*Perfect

Synoptic parallel – where Matthew changes Mark’s Aorist to a Future

Mark 13:20 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... IV;RSV;KJV)
καὶ εἰ μὴ ἐκολόβωσεν κύριος τὰς ἡμέρας, οὐκ ἂν ἐσώθη πᾶσα σάρξ. ἀλλὰ διὰ τοὺς ἐκλεκτοὺς, οὓς ἐξελέξατο, ἐκολόβωσεν τὰς ἡμέρας.
“Unless the Lord *had shortened those days, no life would *have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He *chose, He *shortened the days. (NASB)
*Past/perfect/past
Matt. 24:22 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... IV;RSV;KJV)
καὶ εἰ μὴ ἐκολοβώθησαν αἱ ἡμέραι ἐκεῖναι, οὐκ ἂν ἐσώθη πᾶσα σάρξ· διὰ δὲ τοὺς ἐκλεκτοὺς **κολοβωθήσονται αἱ ἡμέραι ἐκεῖναι.
“Unless those days *had been cut short, no life would *have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days **will be cut short. (NASB)
*Past/perfect/**FUTURE
(The author of Matthew seemingly interpreted the final aorist in Mark in a future sense. Interestingly, he decided to make the futuricity here even more explicit with a grammatical future form.)

Luke 1:51-54 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... IV;RSV;KJV)
(51) Ἐποίησεν κράτος ἐν βραχίονι αὐτοῦ, διεσκόρπισεν ὑπερηφάνους διανοίᾳ καρδίας αὐτῶν· (52) καθεῖλεν δυνάστας ἀπὸ θρόνων καὶ ὕψωσεν ταπεινούς, (53) **πεινῶντας ἐνέπλησεν ἀγαθῶν καὶ πλουτοῦντας ἐξαπέστειλεν κενούς. (54) ἀντελάβετο Ἰσραὴλ παιδὸς αὐτοῦ, μνησθῆναι ἐλέους,
(51) He *has demonstrated power with his arm; he *has scattered those whose pride wells up from the sheer arrogance of their hearts. (52) He *has brought down the mighty from their thrones, and *has lifted up those of lowly position; (53) HE *HAS FILLED THE HUNGRY WITH GOOD THINGS, and *has sent the rich away empty. (54) He *has helped his servant Israel, remembering his mercy (NASB)
*Perfect

**Luke 1:53 quoted from - Ps 107(106):9 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... IV;RSV;KJV)
ὅτι ἐχόρτασεν ψυχὴν κενήν, καὶ ψυχὴν πεινῶσαν ἐνέπλησεν ἀγαθῶν
-For he satisfies the empty soul, and *fills the hungry soul with good things (Brenton)
-Because he *fed an empty soul, and a hungry soul he filled with good things (NETS)
(Fanning notes - 7 aorists, fulfilled in some sense in Mary’s experience, but in a still larger sense future)

John 13:31 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... IV;RSV;KJV)
ὅτε οὖν ἐξῆλθεν λέγει Ἰησοῦς νῦν ἐδοξάσθη ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου καὶ ὁ θεὸς ἐδοξάσθη ἐν αὐτῷ
Therefore when he *had gone out, Jesus *said, “Now *is the Son of Man glorified, and God *is glorified in Him (NASB)
*Past/present/present

Romans 8:30 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... IV;RSV;KJV)
οὓς δὲ προώρισεν, τούτους καὶ ἐκάλεσεν, καὶ οὓς ἐκάλεσεν τούτους καὶ ἐδικαίωσεν οὓς δὲ ἐδικαίωσεν τούτους καὶ ἐδόξασεν
and these whom He *predestined, He also *called; and these whom He *called, He also *justified; and these whom He *justified, He also *glorified. (NASB)
*Past

1 Thess. 2:16 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... IV;RSV;KJV)
κωλυόντων ἡμᾶς τοῖς ἔθνεσιν λαλῆσαι ἵνα (οἱ Ἰουδαῖοι) σωθῶσιν, εἰς τὸ ἀναπληρῶσαι αὐτῶν τὰς ἁμαρτίας πάντοτε ἔφθασεν δὲ ἐπ᾽ αὐτοὺς ἡ ὀργὴ εἰς τέλος
hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they (the Jews) may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath *has come upon them to the utmost. (NASB)
*Perfect

Jude 1:14 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... IV;RSV;KJV)
προεφήτευσεν δὲ καὶ τούτοις ἕβδομος ἀπὸ Ἀδὰμ Ἑνὼχ λέγων ἰδοὺ ἦλθεν κύριος ἐν ἁγίαις μυριάσιν αὐτοῦ
It *was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord *came with many thousands of His holy ones (NASB)
*Past

Rev. 10:7 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... IV;RSV;KJV)
ἀλλ’ ἐν ταῖς ἡμέραις τῆς φωνῆς τοῦ ἑβδόμου ἀγγέλου, ὅταν μέλλῃ σαλπίζειν, καὶ ἐτελέσθη τὸ μυστήριον τοῦ θεοῦ, ὡς εὐηγγέλισεν τοὺς ἑαυτοῦ δούλους τοὺς προφήτας
but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God *is finished, as He *preached to His servants the prophets. (NASB)
*Present (stative)/past

Rev. 11:2 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... IV;RSV;KJV)
καὶ τὴν αὐλὴν τὴν ἔξωθεν τοῦ ναοῦ ἔκβαλε ἔξωθεν καὶ μὴ αὐτὴν μετρήσῃς ὅτι ἐδόθη τοῖς ἔθνεσιν, καὶ τὴν πόλιν τὴν ἁγίαν πατήσουσιν μῆνας τεσσεράκοντα καὶ δύο
*Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it *has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months. (NASB)
*Imperative/perfect

Rev. 14:8 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... IV;RSV;KJV)
καὶ ἄλλος ἄγγελος δεύτερος ἠκολούθησεν λέγων ἔπεσεν ἔπεσεν Βαβυλὼν ἡ μεγάλη ἣ ἐκ τοῦ οἴνου τοῦ θυμοῦ τῆς πορνείας αὐτῆς πεπότικεν πάντα τὰ ἔθνη
And another angel, a second one, *followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen *is Babylon the great, she who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her immorality.” (NASB)
*Past/present (stative)

Rev. 15:1 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... IV;RSV;KJV)
καὶ εἶδον ἄλλο σημεῖον ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, μέγα καὶ θαυμαστόν, ἀγγέλους ἑπτὰ ἔχοντας πληγὰς ἑπτὰ τὰς ἐσχάτας ὅτι ἐν αὐταῖς ἐτελέσθη ὁ θυμὸς τοῦ θεοῦ
Then I *saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God *is finished.
*Past/present (stative)

Fanning notes - These display varying degrees of the three senses discussed above for the Septuagint aorists and Hebrew perfects lying behind them. Several are like the prophetic perfect: a vivid, certain vision of a future occurrence as though already fulfilled (Jude 14; Rev.10:7,14: 8,15:1; perhaps Mark 13:20). Others fit the sense of the perfect o f confidence: occurrences which have not yet started or, having started, have not been completed but which the circumstances show to be inevitable or for some other reason are viewed as certain (Luke 1:51-5; John 13:31; perhaps 1 Thess. 2:16). Closely related to this is the aorist of 'divine decree' which views a future event as certain because of God's predestination ofit in eternity pastor else portrays a course ofaction just determined in the councils of heaven but not yet worked outon earth: the aorist refers to the future workingout, butitisseen ascertain in the light of God's decree (e.g. Rom. 8: 30; Rev. 11:2; perhaps Mark 11: 24, 13:20; 1 Thess.2:16).

163 […] See also Mussies, Morphology, pp. 337-40, who acknowledges such a meaning for Rev. 14:8 but tends to discount th e prophetic sense in other places cited b y Lancellotti. Mussies* point, which seems valid, is that many aorists occur in Revelation not within a series of futures (as the Hebrew perfect tends to do), but in groups, and that this is due to a shift in viewpoint for entire pericopes. Thus, he argues that many such aorists arenot futuristic, butpast tenses reflecting the time ofthe vision,notof the events predicted. This certainly seems true for texts like 19:17ff.;20:1AT.;21:1fT.; and some of the other visions.
2 x

MAubrey
Posts: 991
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 8:52 pm
Location: Washington
Contact:

Re: Aorist indicative with future temporal reference

Post by MAubrey » September 1st, 2019, 5:41 pm

Stephen Nelson wrote:
August 22nd, 2019, 2:15 pm
Bringing this back to the theme of my OP - having surveyed more of the literature on this topic and having analyzed several Greek examples (below) - it seems as though the majority of non-past aorists in the bible are traditionally translated into English with either present perfect or simple present tense constructions; not with future tense constructions. This seem to call into question the idea of the aorist's "spacial remoteness" (but I won't get into that).
I think you've done some excellent analysis of the literature, Stephen.
2 x
Mike Aubrey, Linguist
Koine-Greek.com

Post Reply

Return to “The Verb in Koine Greek”